How The Best CMOs Connect With Investors: The Power of Partnership

Erica Seidel: 00:00:03

Hello, and welcome to The Get.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:05

I'm your host, Erica Seidel.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:07

This season we examine the relationship between CMOs and Boards.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:11

How can that relationship go from fraught to functional,

Erica Seidel: 00:00:14

and maybe even to fantastic?

Erica Seidel: 00:00:17

Today's episode is special.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:19

I've invited a CMO and her Board member together to talk, not just

Erica Seidel: 00:00:23

about each other, but with each other.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:26

You'll see what a good partnership looks like in an actual CMO Board member pair.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:30

We talk with Jen Dimas, the Chief Marketing and Experience Officer

Erica Seidel: 00:00:34

of Telarus, and Evan DeCorte, a Board member from Columbia

Erica Seidel: 00:00:37

Capital, which backs Telarus.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:40

Some things to listen for, realize investors have reptile brains.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:44

They are focusing on Big V versus Little V value, so you as a CMO will

Erica Seidel: 00:00:50

need to do some context switching.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:52

Jen offers a guide for that.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:54

You'll learn what to do starting during your interview process to set

Erica Seidel: 00:00:57

yourself up for a successful standing with the Board, and you'll learn a

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simple framing that will help you as you prepare your Board meetings.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:05

Before we get started, a quick disclaimer as requested by

Erica Seidel: 00:01:08

Evan's friends in Compliance.

Evo Terra: 00:01:10

This interview should not be considered investment

Evo Terra: 00:01:13

advice or a solicitation to invest.

Evo Terra: 00:01:15

And the views and opinions expressed herein are those of the speakers and

Evo Terra: 00:01:19

do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of any entities they represent.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:24

Let's go.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:30

Welcome to the next session of The Get.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:32

This season, as we know, is all about the CMO Board relationship,

Erica Seidel: 00:01:36

and I thought, what better than to have a CMO and one of their Board

Erica Seidel: 00:01:39

members together for this podcast?

Erica Seidel: 00:01:42

So for this one, we welcome Jen Dimas, who is the Chief Marketing

Erica Seidel: 00:01:46

and Experience Officer for Telarus.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:48

And Telarus is a global technology solutions brokerage.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:51

And I actually placed Jen in her role.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:54

It was a really fun search.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:55

And I worked alongside Evan DeCorte from Columbia Capital.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:58

He is our other guest.

Erica Seidel: 00:02:00

He is, uh, a Board member for Telarus and is representing that perspective.

Erica Seidel: 00:02:04

They are a PE entity that backs Telarus.

Erica Seidel: 00:02:07

So let us get started.

Erica Seidel: 00:02:09

Um, I would love to know, the two of you just seem to get along really well,

Erica Seidel: 00:02:13

and as we have talked about before, you have a pretty strong Board partnership

Erica Seidel: 00:02:18

and sometimes the CMO and Board partnership can be a little fraught.

Erica Seidel: 00:02:23

So what makes your partnership special compared to other, uh, kind of, uh,

Erica Seidel: 00:02:29

dyads of CMO and Board members that you have seen or been a part of?

Erica Seidel: 00:02:33

Maybe Jen, we'll start with you?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:35

I think part of the reason our, uh, relationship is

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:39

so strong and functional is because we were just really, we, we're

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:43

both kind of transparent humans.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:44

So when we first met, we both sort of just laid all the cards on the

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:47

table about what was going on.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:48

Evan was really clean and clear what was necessary in the role, what he had

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:52

observed during diligence, uh, looking at Telarus as an investment opportunity and

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:02:57

kind of had done a ton of research and had a really strong thesis of what was

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:00

necessary for the company moving forward.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:03

And he also knew what he didn't know.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:05

He's like, I think I need this thing, but tell me something different.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:08

Um, this is what I see in the market.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:09

This is what I see as an opportunity.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:11

There happened to be a great overlap with what was necessary and what I'm good at.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:15

And I think we had a nice development of our relationship just because we

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:18

both say things that we're good at, things that we, uh, we, things that

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:03:21

we know, things that we don't know and we're, um, honest with each other.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:25

It's really, for me, it's about transparency.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:28

It, I think it's hard to develop a meaningful and productive relationship

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:32

if you can't be straightforward about, you know, what you need

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:34

and want and what you expect.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:36

And, and also it's being receptive to beat back and hearing from the

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:40

company and its executives what they didn't want from us as, as investors.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:44

And, and then there can be a temptation from the Board to treat it as a one-way

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:48

street to, to sort of dictate outcomes.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:50

And it turns out that's actually not, not really how it works.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:53

Um, people build businesses and, and we're part of that conversation, but

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:57

I think ultimately we're facilitators.

Evan DeCorte: 00:03:59

And so if you don't, if you don't come to that table with that approach, right,

Evan DeCorte: 00:04:03

and you think you can sort of just tell people what to do instead building a

Evan DeCorte: 00:04:06

business with them and alongside them, you're gonna set yourself up for, for

Evan DeCorte: 00:04:10

trouble and a lot of disappointment.

Erica Seidel: 00:04:12

Jen, you mentioned Evan and you got to know each other

Erica Seidel: 00:04:16

through the recruiting process.

Erica Seidel: 00:04:17

And I know Evan, you and I worked together along with the CEO of

Erica Seidel: 00:04:20

Telarus for the recruiting of Jen.

Erica Seidel: 00:04:22

Is that, is that unusual?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:24

It's not unusual at all.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:26

I've always met with at least a Board member, um, during recruitment

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:29

for a marketing leadership role.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:31

And frankly, I'd be really concerned if that wasn't part of the conversation.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:35

If I, I would have requested it had it not happened organically.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:39

But it's a very important relationship.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:41

The, the executive team in general, delivering on the promise to their

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:45

investors, that's a big deal.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:47

And so knowing what the dynamic is there and understanding that relationship

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:51

is incredibly important to, to be able to set yourself up for success.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:54

So, no, I don't think it's unusual.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:56

I think what was unusual here is just how well-aligned we all

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:04:59

were and like how quickly we established fluency with each other.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:03

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:04

My take on having investors in, involved in searches is, I'd rather

Erica Seidel: 00:05:09

have somebody who is helping be a chef at the beginning of a process

Erica Seidel: 00:05:13

than being like the restaurant critic and at the end of a process.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:16

So sometimes I've done searches where an investor comes in way at the end and

Erica Seidel: 00:05:21

they're like, oh, thumbs up, thumbs down.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:22

And it's not as helpful as if they're kind of involved early on.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:27

There's, there's something else I just wanted to say, um,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:29

Erica, that I think is, is special here.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:32

Because Evan and Columbia had done such incredibly thorough work on diligence

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:37

about Telarus, like they really understood the market in which Telarus is operating.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:42

So they had really strong opinions about what could be done and what was necessary.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:46

And so I think it's a, it was important that they were at the table, like

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:50

they saw the market opportunity for doing things differently.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:53

And they knew that, that doing this right was gonna be a real

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:55

lever for success of the org.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:05:57

And so I'm glad they were so involved and they were really well informed.

Erica Seidel: 00:06:02

Evan, I'm gonna actually ask you this, like what do Boards want

Erica Seidel: 00:06:05

from a CMO and what don't they want?

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:08

I think what we don't want is hand waving.

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:10

As I sort of think about it, it's like a lot of vagueries and, and talk like

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:14

big talk about what could be or the things that are in motion and what things

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:19

maybe should look like in the future.

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:21

But it's hard to know.

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:23

I mean, I think Erica, you, you sort point out and say this all the time, but

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:26

like we have very simple reptile brains.

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:29

We are investors, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:30

And our, our goal is to invest money in the company and then to sell or recap as a

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:36

business some way and get money back out.

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:37

And our goal is to have that pile of money at the end be a lot bigger

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:40

than the pile at the beginning.

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:42

And so a lot of what we are focused on is what is the result of the

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:46

actions that you're taking as a CMO?

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:49

How do they intersect with the strategy of the overall business?

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:53

And how do they correlate with value creation?

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:57

I, I think as investors we can probably, we're probably pretty thoughtful

Evan DeCorte: 00:06:59

about function and we maybe have some thoughts on sales and operation.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:04

I think it's a rare investor that is, uh, you know, a marketing

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:06

expert that probably approaches nearly 0% of the, of the population.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:11

And so we just need things in many ways think brought back to the basics, which is

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:14

we are doing X and here's how it aligns to the plan and here's how it creates value.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:18

If you can sort of link all of those points in a clean way, you're gonna

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:23

have a very easy conversation with the Board and the investor syndicate.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:26

I think where conversations break down is pointing to activity and

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:33

describing the value it will create without either data or, uh, an

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:38

obvious linkage to a strategic plan.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:41

You know, activity doesn't create value necessarily.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:43

Some activity does, but, but not all.

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:45

And so then confusing lots of moving pieces and lots of activity for

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:50

the process of sort of building the business like that, that's, I think,

Evan DeCorte: 00:07:52

where things get a little shaky.

Erica Seidel: 00:07:54

I love this reptilian brain concept.

Erica Seidel: 00:07:56

I find that so hilarious and so accurate, and I, uh, thank you

Erica Seidel: 00:08:00

for, thank you for saying that.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:03

So it seems like, and Evan is, I mean, I think you're, you're right, I heard the

Erica Seidel: 00:08:08

stat the other day that fewer than 5% of Board members have marketing backgrounds.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:14

So it's, as you say, it's kind of like approaches zero.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:17

So it seems to me that investors are asking for CMOs to kind

Erica Seidel: 00:08:21

of context switch for them.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:24

It's not like the Board members are not going to context

Erica Seidel: 00:08:26

switch for marketing leaders.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:29

So, Jen, I'm curious, there is this kind of translation between

Erica Seidel: 00:08:32

here's what I'm doing and, and how value gets created here.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:36

So can you talk more about that context switching and, and also

Erica Seidel: 00:08:40

like why is it incumbent upon you to do it if you believe that it is?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:08:45

Uh, well, yes, I do think it is important for me to

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:08:47

be able to speak to the value that I'm driving in the business in a way

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:08:50

that our investors would care about.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:08:52

Uh, a hundred percent I believe that's important.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:08:54

And I think, um, one of the ways that Evan and I sometimes talk about this

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:08:58

is "Big V value" and "Little V value."

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:01

And I think the Little V value, a lot of times people are really attached to

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:05

that, like that's the, what am I doing today that helps to drive pipeline and

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:09

like the things that I'm measuring on the daily, weekly, monthly to say I

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:13

am doing these activities and they're creating value in the business.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:16

It would be easy - it's not easy, by the way, lots of people aren't

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:20

comfortable with that kind of a conversation or that flow, but that's

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:23

not - Evan does care about that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:25

Believe me, he cares about pipeline and booking that are happening.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:28

What Evan cares about is the thing he told you about five minutes ago when

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:31

he said, I put some money in and three to five years from now, I want it to

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:34

be more money that I'm getting out.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:36

That's Big V value.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:38

So it's a really, it has been hard in B2B marketing historically

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:42

to draw a direct line from the activities that you're making to

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:45

the outcomes that they're driving.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:47

But now we're actually talking about Big V value, the value of

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:50

this company, not just the value of these marketing activities that I'm

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:54

driving, this, this my contribution to pipeline, whatever those things are.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:09:58

This is about how am I increasing the value of this company in market?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:02

And that is not a conversation that is necessarily one that many

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:06

are comfortable or fluent in, and that's the code switching that needs

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:09

to happen between the operational plan and how I'm executing today.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:13

That's also important, by the way, and Evan cares a ton about that, too.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:16

But how am I changing the program that I'm running, the team, the, um, the efforts

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:21

where I'm investing in order to increase that Big V value for the company at large.

Erica Seidel: 00:10:26

Can you say more about that Big V value?

Erica Seidel: 00:10:28

Like when you're at a Board meeting, what does that look like

Erica Seidel: 00:10:32

when you are describing that?

Erica Seidel: 00:10:34

Can you say like, oh, the, the value of the company just went up X percent?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:38

I wish I could do that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:40

That would be cool, but no, that, that's why part of this is hard is this, that's

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:44

the hardest thing to measure, right?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:46

In marketing, the, the easiest thing to measure, which honestly years ago you

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:49

couldn't even do this is I did these activities, I created this pipeline.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:54

Right?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:54

Those are, those are the, the kinds of things that you can

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:55

draw straight lines to now.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:57

Even those things used to be difficult.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:10:59

But in terms of value creation of a brand or a category that's

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:03

really squishy and difficult.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:04

If you're not spend, if you're not spending tons of money on a

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:07

share of voice, share a wallet, what's going on out there?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:10

And for a company in our stage of growth, those kinds of, um,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:13

studies don't make any sense.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:14

Um, and by the way, even if you spent hundreds of thousands of

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:16

dollars to do those studies in five minutes, that data would old.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:19

So it, it's not a good investment to do those studies

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:22

to understand your Big V value.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:23

But in our particular case, we have understandings about how we want this

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:28

company to be understood and valued and what new markets we want to open.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:32

And we'll be able to see that we're having success there because we will

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:36

begin to create revenue in new directions.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:39

We will open up, uh, we will see consistency in, uh, bookings

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:43

creation, in, in directions we haven't seen historically.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:46

Maybe into a new geo, maybe a new, new product offering, maybe

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:49

in a new revenue source that we hadn't considered historically.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:52

Those kinds of things would increase our value.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:55

The squishy ways that this would show up, and every marketer hates this, but

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:11:58

one of the things that we knew was a challenge here is our own customers saying

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:03

to us, "Oh, I didn't know you did that."

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:06

That breaks every marketer's heart.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:07

We don't want that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:08

So addressing those kinds of things, those are, those are the squishy

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:11

things that are hard to measure, right?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:13

How do we make sure that where we are understood, um, where we are in

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:17

the consideration set of our future customers, that that is, that market

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:21

is expanding, and that more folks are understanding the ways that

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:12:24

Telarus can drive value for them.

Erica Seidel: 00:12:26

So, Evan, let me ask you, if Jen or a different marketing leader

Erica Seidel: 00:12:30

from a different port co brought up these kind of squishy things, which

Erica Seidel: 00:12:33

it's, it's, I don't know if I would say squishy, but kind of like directional

Erica Seidel: 00:12:36

things, like in a Board meeting.

Erica Seidel: 00:12:39

So, for instance, people are, are not saying that they, um, knew that such and

Erica Seidel: 00:12:44

such a company did X, Y, Z, like, do you think that's valid for a Board meeting?

Evan DeCorte: 00:12:50

It's very rarely the case in a complex operating business that you

Evan DeCorte: 00:12:54

have one-to-one correlations everywhere across the company where you can directly

Evan DeCorte: 00:12:58

tie specific actions to specific outcomes.

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:00

Right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:01

And so this idea that we're gonna have perfect knowledge, it's like,

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:04

I don't really think it makes sense.

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:06

And it seems like an impossible goal.

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:09

In many ways, I, I think the Board meeting, and this is not exactly what

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:13

you asked, but I think the Board meeting and the, and the conversation in the

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:16

Boardroom can act as like a bit of a forcing function to, to cause all of the

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:21

executives in the business to stop and reflect on this very specific operational

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:27

activities that they've been carrying out and ask how does this create value?

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:31

Right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:31

Why are we doing these things?

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:33

How do we know that they are successful?

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:35

And sometimes we can, all we can do is get a sense where we're directionally

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:40

correct and like, that's okay.

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:42

I think what, what doesn't work, though, and where I think really, I

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:47

don't think it should be a, a question of, of code switching where marketers

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:51

think about marketing things and investors think about investment things.

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:55

We are united in a common goal, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:13:57

Which is creating, creating value for the employees, for the shareholders,

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:01

and creating valuable business.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:03

If we don't look at the, all of our activities through that lens, I, I think

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:06

we've sort of failed the enterprise.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:08

And so I, I just, I think in a really simple example, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:12

Every CMO in our portfolio is a shareholder, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:16

I mean, either through a management incentive plan or direct

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:19

ownership, they participate in the value that's being created.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:23

And I don't actually think that that the worlds are too,

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:25

they're, they're too different.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:26

It's just where you focus and where you apply your efforts.

Erica Seidel: 00:14:29

Evan, is there something that you admit that you

Erica Seidel: 00:14:32

don't understand about marketing that you'd be willing to share?

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:37

I don't know anything about marketing.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:39

I mean, like, there's not like, like so many things I don't know.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:42

I mean, I, I don't even know, I don't even know how start answering that.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:44

I mean, at, at one point in a, in a life long, long ago, I, I, I had some

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:49

marketing experience and like, I'm not even sure I was very good at it.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:52

And I wouldn't even pretend to give, um, relevant operational advice.

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:58

Right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:14:58

I mean, I think the world in which Jen says, like, I'm, I'm thinking

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:02

about running this campaign and here are the various ads in front of me.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:07

What should you choose?

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:07

It's like, well, like that's very misguided to ask me because like

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:12

what of worth could I tell you?

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:14

I think this just kind of goes back to like what is the, what is the relationship

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:17

between the Board, the investor syndicate, and the executive team?

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:20

It's, hey Jen, like show me with your track record.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:24

Right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:24

So you've told me that you wanted to pursue these things, that they would

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:27

be valuable in the past you did them.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:28

What was the outcome?

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:30

I think that feedback loop is just as valuable when things are working

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:33

as it is when they're not working.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:34

In fact, it's probably more valuable when it's not working right.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:37

So, to the extent that we can see team hypothesis test and then

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:41

course correct, that's great too.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:44

We don't expect everyone to be right a hundred percent of the time.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:46

What we, what we care about is that we're measuring the activity as best

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:50

we can and knowing that it's probably imperfect at best, and then using

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:55

that data to inform our next action.

Evan DeCorte: 00:15:58

And so, I mean, I don't know, Jen, correct me if I'm wrong, but, like,

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:03

the number of times I've given any kind of meaningful, substantive advice in

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:05

the Board meeting around some specific marketing tactic, like I, I probably

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:10

could count on one hand and every time I gave it was probably wrong.

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:13

So our, our goal is not to be smart marketers.

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:15

That's why we recruit great people to work with our businesses.

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:18

So we don't, we don't have to do it.

Evan DeCorte: 00:16:20

We're getting involved it's because something's gone horribly wrong.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:23

I do think now there was something, um, underneath what Evan

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:26

just said, that that has changed who marketers are, who CMOs are, Erica,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:32

and that is this preponderance of data that allows us to understand now

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:37

digital buying behavior, to be able to see how people are engaging with

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:41

the brand and how they become engaged when they're in the consideration set.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:45

What their purchase journey looks like.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:46

What happens after.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:48

Now that we can understand these things, it, we, we must, right?

Erica Seidel: 00:16:51

Mm-hmm.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:52

So what Evan didn't say is like, that's why he wants

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:54

data-driven marketers to help him because he speaks with his reptile brain.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:16:59

He wants to understand, if I put in a dollar here, how many dollars

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:03

am I getting out on the other side?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:05

And that's hard to do if you're talking about squishy, you know, arts and crafts

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:09

marketing, which that, that's why the profile of who leads marketing has

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:12

changed so much because the data exists to be able to tell more informed stories.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:16

And so that's why folks are looking for that profile from a leader today.

Erica Seidel: 00:17:20

So, Jen, let me ask you, we asked Evan what he wants from a CMO.

Erica Seidel: 00:17:25

What do you want from a Board and what don't you want?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:29

I love that they know what they know and

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:31

they know what they don't know.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:33

Um, and they're just so that, that's super helpful because it

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:36

hasn't always been like that for me.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:37

I'll, I'll be honest, like there are a lot of people who read something

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:39

about marketing and, and then send you a note saying, you should do this

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:42

with your SEO strategy, or you should go on Twitter and say these things.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:45

There are a lot of people who sort of like play at operating, and that's not bad.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:50

I mean, it's, you get good ideas from all over the place.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:52

It's not a bad thing to have that, but it, it's really powerful to know where

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:56

you add value and where you don't.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:17:57

Like Evan and I have had many conversations about me understanding

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:01

his financial perspective on things and what good looks like and what success

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:05

looks like for the company and things like that so that we remain aligned.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:09

So I like, I like that kind of openness.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:11

I like that we have open channels of communication.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:14

Like that's another thing is I like ungated access to Board.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:18

Uh, sometimes you have, uh, leadership that, that's really

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:21

protective of that relationship, and we don't have that at Telarus.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:24

We are, we are allowed and encouraged to have direct relationships with Board

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:28

and I think that is really healthy.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:30

So that's something that I would want is open access.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:33

And feedback like when things are going well or when things aren't going well.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:36

Just like Evan wants me to tell him, hey, I, I ran this play and oops,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:40

that didn't work out well, so now I'm gonna do it this way next time.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:43

This is what I'm gonna change and this is how, this is what I learned

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:45

and how I'm gonna do it differently.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:47

I also want them to be like, hey, by the way, when you presented

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:50

information the following way is this did not, um, meet our expectations.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:53

It would be better if it was like this, and this is what I really meant

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:56

when I said I wanted this thing.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:18:57

Like real open, honest feedback is super helpful.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:00

'Cause I've definitely had it where it's not that and that I've

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:03

been surprised by Board reactions.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:05

So I think that that's sort of me as a human, um, wanting that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:09

I want more open communication anyway.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:11

And having that from a Board is very important.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:13

I, I believe I have that with Evan and with the rest of the

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:15

Columbia Capital Board, too.

Erica Seidel: 00:19:17

So Jen, what would be your advice to another CMO who is facing that

Erica Seidel: 00:19:22

challenge that a Board member, you know, saw something, you know, like, oh, go

Erica Seidel: 00:19:27

do this thing on Twitter, or, you know, why don't you, why don't you do X, Y, Z?

Erica Seidel: 00:19:31

How, how would you advise them?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:34

Well, what I've said, I really believe.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:36

Like good ideas come from anywhere.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:37

So part of the guidance there is listening, uh, you know, being open-minded

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:41

to things, but the other part is to, it's an opportunity in some cases to

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:46

remind folks about what your priorities and where your areas of focus are.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:50

So it, it would be great in, in, in the case when someone came up with

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:53

a thing and said, "Hey, why don't you go do the thing over there?"

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:55

You could say, oh, that's a really interesting idea, and remember this year

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:19:59

we're focused on these three priorities.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:01

These are the things that my programs are driving toward.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:03

And I, we could, um, we could take some of our focus away to try that experiment,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:08

but I'm not sure it would have the same impact on the bottom line as these

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:10

things that we're doing or whatever.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:12

Bringing information back to what are the like top line objectives

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:16

that you're trying to drive through the business is one way to do that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:19

Because there's always a lot of ideas and keeping focused and, uh, and trying

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:23

things is good or, or keeping a carve out for ex-experian, like, uh, experiment,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:28

pardon me, is is also not a bad idea because there are often ideas that

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:20:32

come at you from lots of directions and it's not a bad idea to try things.

Erica Seidel: 00:20:36

Right.

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:36

I actually think it's funny, like, I hadn't really thought about

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:38

it that way, but I, I do think framing things for the investor or the Board

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:44

around this idea of constrained resources.

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:46

Like we only have so many people.

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:47

We have to pick the things that we're gonna do and we wanna

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:50

be best in the world at them.

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:51

In order for us to do that, this is what we have to do.

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:54

Like that, that is, that's language that resonates, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:56

So we, I always sort of ask people like, what are you best in the world at?

Evan DeCorte: 00:20:59

What is the company best in the world at?

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:01

How do we do more of that thing and do less things you're not?

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:04

I think investors and finance folks understand this idea of constrained

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:08

resources and tradeoffs really well, but somehow, like when we talk with

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:12

the companies with which we invested, we have this expectation that people

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:16

do endless amounts of work with, you know, very limited resources.

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:19

And then there's also this question about budget, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:21

So we like the idea of endless work, but without endless budget.

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:24

And, and like turns out those are, like, contradictory ideas.

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:27

And so, you know, I think framing the priorities around, you know, what we can

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:33

do well and what we need to focus on, I think is also, is always a, a helpful

Evan DeCorte: 00:21:39

way to ground and frame the conversation.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:42

Thank you.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:42

So any tips on when things are not going well?

Erica Seidel: 00:21:45

Evan, you brought this up earlier.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:47

If, um, you know, say leads are down, conversion is suffering, a launch

Erica Seidel: 00:21:51

falls flat, you know, you spend a lot of money on a campaign and it

Erica Seidel: 00:21:54

doesn't do, doesn't go anywhere.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:56

Like, I'm curious from, from either or both of you, how should that change

Erica Seidel: 00:22:00

how a CMO interacts with the Board?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:02

If you have the measurements in place, like

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:04

we were talking about, there's always something that's out.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:07

People don't buy the way you expect them to buy.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:10

Buying trends change, things change.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:12

Um, and so there's never gonna be ever a time when you 100%

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:15

delivered on your promise.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:17

So I think just being completely, first of all, managing expectations

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:20

that that's true is helpful.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:22

Like if someone's expecting green across the Board and everything just

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:25

goes the way that they, uh, hoped it would, like, that's not rational.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:28

It's probably not gonna go that way.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:30

And we're probably not measuring things appropriately if everything's

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:32

always looking up and to the right.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:34

So what we're looking for are to have the mechanisms in place that we can see when

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:39

things are out and that we can adjust.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:40

So Evan just said, tell me early and often when things aren't going right.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:44

I would hope, Erica, never, I mean, not never, unless Evan wants me to,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:48

but I'm not gonna be in the business of talking to Evan about the messaging

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:51

that I have at the campaign level.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:53

That's something, that's like too small for him.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:55

He doesn't care about those things.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:56

What he cares about is the outcome in a bi- much bigger sense.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:22:59

So he needs to believe that I'm tracking the business in a way that I can

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:03

make adjustments, um, to my business and ma- and make those outcomes.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:07

And that, and that I need to be out and honest with what's going

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:10

really well and also with what I'm, uh, working to correct.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:13

And so some of that is me, um, actively managing expectations that

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:16

things will, will always be out.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:18

And secondly, me, me showing the reds and the yellows too, not just

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:22

the greens when I'm communicating with the Board about what's going,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:23:24

you know, how things are going.

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:25

I guess just what I wanna know is that, amongst the teams that

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:29

we back, there's enough willingness to reflect on what's going right and wrong.

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:34

Communicate those lessons in, in an open and honest way

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:37

that we can have a dialogue.

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:39

What I think, I think when that breaks down, I think you get a lot of, you get a

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:43

lot of commentary about, you know, Twitter tactics from Board members who don't

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:47

know what they're talking about, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:49

There's like some, some interests are desired to assert control where

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:53

maybe they feel like they don't have their arms around things.

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:55

And I think similarly, if teams don't feel like they have an understanding

Evan DeCorte: 00:23:58

where their investors sit and how they're thinking about the world, then maybe they,

Evan DeCorte: 00:24:02

maybe they wanna hoard information too.

Evan DeCorte: 00:24:03

And like if, when you get to those, those are very dark places to get and

Evan DeCorte: 00:24:06

you really never, ever wanna be there.

Evan DeCorte: 00:24:09

And the only way to, to avoid it is just be open, honest, every

Evan DeCorte: 00:24:12

step, every step of the way.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:14

Your question, um, was about what to do in these cases.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:18

So part of my guidance would be include the Board in all of your interviews.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:23

First of all, don't ever accept a marketing leadership position without

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:27

relationship development with that Board because you don't know what

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:29

you're walking into otherwise.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:30

Like you're signing up for something that you don't know what that's like.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:33

And then manage that, um, relationship actively.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:35

I can- earlier when leadership was less comfortable to me, when it was a newer

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:40

experience of leading the functions, I don't know that I had the confidence to

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:44

push on that kind of thing as much and I didn't, um, and I didn't know that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:47

I don't think I developed the Board relationships as much as I

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:50

should have, like looking back.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:52

Um, and so there was an out between expectation and, uh,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:56

delivery and things like that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:24:57

And I think that as I've moved on, like that's an incredibly important,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:01

uh, relationship to invest in before you even accept the job so that

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:05

you're on the same page about, um, expectations, but also certainly

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:08

to cultivate while you're in-seat.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:09

That, that makes a ton of sense.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:11

Jen, you were mentioning, you know, reds, yellows, and greens.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:14

Um, which makes me wonder, what has worked and what hasn't in terms of

Erica Seidel: 00:25:18

structuring your Board presentations?

Erica Seidel: 00:25:21

And relatedly, is there a way that you've seen to not have Board meeting prep

Erica Seidel: 00:25:26

take days of intensity and days of time?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:30

Well, your Board meeting content is

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:31

always incredibly important.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:33

And I, I'm not even a year in-seat at Telarus.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:36

So if I am honest about how we've managed our Board conversations

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:40

to date, it's not like I have a, a rote package that I'm continuously

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:44

delivering to them every single time.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:46

It's more complete updates to like, what are the strategic imperatives?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:50

The first 120 days I was like sitting and looking and evaluating the business

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:54

and deciding what priorities were, and it was aligning on priorities and it

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:57

was restructuring and doing all that.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:25:59

So there's been a lot of higher level updates, but my goal ultimately

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:04

when I get the business to where it is, is to have more of a regular

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:07

package, which is data driven.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:08

I have, at this point, um, developed a dashboard, but it, it is a dashboard

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:13

that I am just now reporting on regularly to the internal business.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:17

It's not even Board ready.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:18

Like, I'll, Evan, I could, I I would show it to you in a private meeting right

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:21

now, but it's not consistent enough.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:24

Um, I haven't had enough months in-seat, like measuring the same

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:27

things that I believe it's Board ready.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:30

And so I think by partway through this year we'll be in that place,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:33

Erica, where I'll have a more standard Board reporting package where Evan

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:26:37

can be like, aha, these, this is what I expect to see from Jen.

Erica Seidel: 00:26:41

Evan, anything to add on how Board meeting prep can be less intensive?

Evan DeCorte: 00:26:47

I don't actually know if that's the right question.

Evan DeCorte: 00:26:49

Like, I mean, I think that the sort of frames Board meeting prep as like

Evan DeCorte: 00:26:51

eating, eating your vegetables, right?

Erica Seidel: 00:26:53

Yeah.

Evan DeCorte: 00:26:53

It's like what's the least painful way to do this?

Evan DeCorte: 00:26:56

It, it's, something's that's kind of a pain and it takes a lot time,

Evan DeCorte: 00:26:59

and could we be more efficient?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:01

Because it, I, I think it treats the, the Board reporting as

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:05

perfunctory and as reporting.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:08

And I think if that's the where you are, well then just send out the deck.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:12

We don't need a Board meeting, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:13

I mean, send some materials.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:14

Tell me, show me the same thing every month or every quarter, whatever.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:17

And we don't need to get together and burn up a bunch of time.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:20

If that's what you're doing, I, I think Board meetings, Board meetings probably

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:22

were being run pretty poorly, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:24

It's not good use of everyone's time.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:26

I think Board meeting prep takes time because it is, I think, for the business,

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:30

like a moment of self-reflection.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:31

What have we done?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:32

What were the outcomes?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:34

What are we gonna do differently?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:35

How does this impact our view on strategy or the market?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:38

And those are not always easy questions to answer.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:41

And if they are really easy, like I, I might, might think it's time

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:45

for a little more self-reflection.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:47

Right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:47

Because it, because they're, these are like, it very rarely are the things

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:50

that we're doing, even in businesses that are just really doing well, easy.

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:56

We face tough questions that take time to grapple with, right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:27:59

We are conducting a lot of activities and hiring people and running new

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:02

strategies and evaluating them and measuring them against the alternatives.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:06

Like those are complex questions.

Erica Seidel: 00:28:09

Yeah.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:10

If the answer is obvious and easy, and it's the same every

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:13

quarter, like something's not working.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:16

So I, I encourage the companies that we work with, and I think this, you know,

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:20

extends all the way to the marketing function to look at the Board meeting as a

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:24

way to just pause and to, to kind of think about what you've been spending time on

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:27

and you know, what you wanna accomplish and, and what you have accomplished.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:32

I think for, just given where Columbia invests, a lot of times we'll get involved

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:36

in the business that maybe has actually never even had a formal Board meeting.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:40

And I think there's sometimes a little bit of, like, a allergic reaction idea.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:43

We'll write all the things working down piece of paper then talk about them.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:46

But over time, I, I, I would say the universal, in your universal

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:50

view from the executives that we partner with, the Board meeting

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:54

itself is a highly valuable exercise.

Evan DeCorte: 00:28:57

It is not just to give an update to the investor group.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:00

It does force you to look with outside

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:02

eyes at your business, right?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:04

'Cause you can get so in the weeds on a regular day, to say, okay,

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:08

wait a minute, now I'm looking at this from a different perspective.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:11

Uh, what's the story?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:12

How are things going?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:13

And so I, I completely agree that it, and, and also you wanna use

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:17

the Board for the guidance that they're good at giving you, right?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:20

You wanna be able to say, these are the things that are happening, and

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:22

ask them for the guidance, um, in the places where you need it or, or buy in

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:27

for the decisions that you're making.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:28

If they, you know, like, this is my strategy.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:30

This is something I learned, this is what I'm gonna do differently.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:33

Is this something you're familiar with?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:34

Is this, does this make sense?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:29:35

Like, use the Board for making good decisions too.

Erica Seidel: 00:29:38

Right.

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:39

And I think, you know, the, the more informed we are, the

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:42

better we are at providing support.

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:45

And that support is not in the form of, you know, this

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:48

marketing tactic versus that.

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:49

It's, hey Jen, like we have ten other portfolio companies

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:53

that face similar problems.

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:55

I have an idea about how they solve them.

Evan DeCorte: 00:29:59

I'm probably not the best person to describe them to you.

Evan DeCorte: 00:30:01

Why don't you talk to them?

Evan DeCorte: 00:30:02

Right?

Evan DeCorte: 00:30:03

So we, I think we can facilitate connections and conversations that

Evan DeCorte: 00:30:08

ultimately are useful, that help get to resolution, but without us being

Evan DeCorte: 00:30:12

the ones actually dictating the result.

Erica Seidel: 00:30:15

That's a great conversation.

Erica Seidel: 00:30:16

Thank you.

Erica Seidel: 00:30:16

So final question for each of you is just what one piece of final

Erica Seidel: 00:30:20

advice would you have for a new CMO or a CMO that's new to a role to

Erica Seidel: 00:30:25

optimize their Board relationship?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:27

I think I'll just go back to the thing that I said before.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:30

One is ensure that the Board is included in your, in your interview process.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:35

I wouldn't allow it otherwise.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:37

And then cultivate that relate, actively cultivate that relationship as someone

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:40

who's their partner with you and the success of the business, and help you

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:43

see things from a different direction.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:44

And they have skills and abilities to help you be more successful at your job.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:48

So leverage them.

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:49

And also they can help you in some very clear ways understand

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:52

what is the Big V value?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:53

What, why are you there?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:54

What is the outcome that you're really trying to drive?

Jen Pockell Dimas: 00:30:56

And, and have that perspective from, from a different, a different lens.

Erica Seidel: 00:31:00

Evan, anything to add?

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:02

Yeah, I mean, I think without, um, I'll just say just

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:04

transparency is, is, is absolutely key.

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:06

But I think maybe this, the specific thing I would recommend and something

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:09

we try and do though, though not always successfully, is to make sure

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:13

that we are sharing our view on how value gets created in these businesses

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:18

and being very specific about it.

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:20

And that's not necessarily to like prescribe a playbook, but I think, you

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:24

know, even very early on, you know, Jen, Jen and I sat down, you know, we

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:28

went through our deck, like how do we think value gets created at Telarus?

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:32

And how do we think the market will think about value?

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:35

How do we think that intersects with mark, intersects with marketing?

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:38

And here's some example numbers.

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:40

Like it's not, it's not as if it was the crystal ball where we

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:44

outline exactly what's gonna happen for the next couple of years.

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:46

But it allows us to align, I think, but Jen will tell me if it'll work

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:50

not, on the common vocabulary, so that when we talk about value, we are

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:55

actually talking about the same thing.

Evan DeCorte: 00:31:57

I think sometimes that step can get skipped because we assume that we're

Evan DeCorte: 00:32:02

all speaking the same language, when in fact we very rarely are.

Evan DeCorte: 00:32:05

Just because we come with different sets of experiences and different

Evan DeCorte: 00:32:08

priors, look doesn't mean we're gonna agree on everything.

Evan DeCorte: 00:32:11

But I think it's important that we understand each person's worldview so

Evan DeCorte: 00:32:16

that we can iterate quickly as we develop a relationship around what does value

Evan DeCorte: 00:32:22

creation mean in a, you know, private equity backed or venture-backed business.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:25

Well, this has been awesome.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:27

Thank you both for sharing these fabulous perspectives.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:29

I have this image in my mind of reptilian brains and, you know,

Erica Seidel: 00:32:34

awesome reptiles and, um, and also just a, just such a nice, uh,

Erica Seidel: 00:32:38

connection between the two of you.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:39

So, thank you so much, Jen Dimas and Evan DeCorte for joining The Get.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:45

That was Jen Dimas, Chief Marketing and Experience Officer from Telarus,

Erica Seidel: 00:32:49

and Evan DeCorte, one of her Board members from Columbia Capital.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:53

Maybe you have a Board member with a reptilian brain.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:56

Think about how you can translate marketing speak for them based

Erica Seidel: 00:32:59

on what you learned today.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:02

Next time on The Get, we will hear from two SaaS marketing leaders from

Erica Seidel: 00:33:05

PE-backed companies about their hard-won learnings on working with Boards,

Erica Seidel: 00:33:09

Alison Dancy and Madeline O'Phelan.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:12

You'll hear about the relative importance of the three Cs - context,

Erica Seidel: 00:33:16

content, and confidence when interacting with the Board.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:20

And we talk about how Boards have glommed onto some key marketing concepts like

Erica Seidel: 00:33:24

ABM and ICP, but not others, like brand.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:27

How do you leverage that in your Board interactions?

Erica Seidel: 00:33:30

Don't miss it.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:33

Thanks for listening to The Get.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:34

I'm your host, Erica Seidel.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:36

The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and

Erica Seidel: 00:33:40

leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:42

We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top

Erica Seidel: 00:33:46

marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:48

If you liked this episode, please share it.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:51

For more about The Get, visit thegetpodcast.com.

Erica Seidel: 00:33:54

To learn more about my executive search practice, which focuses on recruiting the

Erica Seidel: 00:33:58

make-money marketing leaders rather than the make-it-pretty ones, follow me on

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LinkedIn or visit theconnectivegood.com.

Erica Seidel: 00:34:06

The Get is produced by Evo Terra of Simpler Media Productions.