Episode 2
How The Best CMOs Seize Control of Strategic Planning
The CMO’s most important job when scaling? To create focus, protect focus, and seize control of the strategic planning process - not just for marketing but for the company as a whole. Here’s how to do that.
Join Erica and her guest Jay Gaines, who runs marketing at insurance tech scale-up AgentSync, as they discuss:
- How to avoid ‘random acts of marketing,’ reinforce the role of marketing as the business scales, and drive a shared common understanding of what marketing is there to do for the business.
- How marketing can -- and should -- seize control of the strategic planning process for the company as a whole
- How to respond to a CEO who over-rotates on a demand-first view of marketing
- The one question the best CMO candidates ask the CEO before they say yes to a scale job: “How exactly do you plan to expand?”
- How to avoid a surprisingly tantalizing organization misstep when scaling
- How employees’ values are changing away from ‘growth at all costs’ - which means companies need to be pitching themselves differently
- How a tangible commitment to work/life balance and DEI, embodied from the top-down, can accelerate hiring in the long run
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Key Links
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Hiring great marketing leaders is not easy. The Get is a podcast designed to inspire smart decisions around recruiting and leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today’s top marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
This season’s theme is Solving for the Scale Journey.
The Get’s host is Erica Seidel, who runs The Connective Good, an executive search practice with a hyper-focus on recruiting CMOs and VPs of Marketing, especially in B2B SaaS.
If you are looking to hire a CMO or VP of Marketing of the ‘make money’ variety - rather than the ‘make it pretty’ variety, contact Erica at erica@theconnectivegood.com. You can also follow Erica on LinkedIn or sign up for her newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
The Get is produced by Evo Terra and Simpler Media Productions.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
Hi, you're listening to The Get, the podcast about finding and keeping
Speaker:great marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
Speaker:I'm Erica Seidel, your host.
Speaker:Lately, I've noticed something that all my best CMO candidates do.
Speaker:When they hear that a company wants to, say, double in revenue, they make sure to
ask a particular question:"How exactly do you plan for the growth to come from?"
ask a particular question:Our guest today reminds CMOs to take the reins for growth planning.
ask a particular question:You'll hear from Jay Gaines, who now runs marketing for the insurance
ask a particular question:tech company AgentSync and is the former CMO of SiriusDecisions.
ask a particular question:You'll hear about mistakes to avoid when starting to scale.
ask a particular question:Spoiler alert - and this was surprising: Don't hire too
ask a particular question:heavily in demand generation.
ask a particular question:You'll also hear about the importance of hiring fast and hiring for
ask a particular question:diversity and equity and inclusion.
ask a particular question:And you'll hear about what candidates are looking for today and how
ask a particular question:that's different from before.
ask a particular question:Jay, welcome to the show.
ask a particular question:Let's talk about key things to avoid as a CMO embarks on a scale journey.
ask a particular question:I think the main thing, and all of these things are a little bit connected, the
ask a particular question:main thing to avoid is letting the scaling of the organization impact negatively
ask a particular question:the focus and purpose of marketing.
ask a particular question:Now, inevitably as a company scales, you're going to have a lot more
ask a particular question:products that are going to be launched.
ask a particular question:You're going to add complexity as you expand into new vertical
ask a particular question:industries, into new geos, all of those things are going to expand the
ask a particular question:scope of marketing's work for sure.
ask a particular question:But the other thing that happens along the way is that a lot of
ask a particular question:random projects come up and people aren't quite sure where they belong.
ask a particular question:The default seems to be marketing can do this, right?
ask a particular question:They've got limitless capacity, sure.
ask a particular question:Just throw it to marketing and they'll take it on.
ask a particular question:So you want to avoid allowing that to happen, and there's
ask a particular question:a few ways to avoid that.
ask a particular question:The first is to be constantly marketing internally.
ask a particular question:Being sure to reinforce with the CEO, the head of sales, other leadership in
ask a particular question:the company the role that marketing is playing at the business as it scales.
ask a particular question:Like I said, that will expand somewhat, but you always want to make
ask a particular question:sure that there's a shared, common understanding of what it is marketing
ask a particular question:is here to do for the business.
ask a particular question:That's important.
ask a particular question:The second thing to do is, and it usually falls to the CMO to do this, and this
ask a particular question:might be a surprise for some folks, but to seize control of that strategic
ask a particular question:planning process at the corporate level.
ask a particular question:Not talking about just marketing strategic planning, but I'm talking about
ask a particular question:strategic planning for the business.
ask a particular question:And when I say seize control, I don't mean that the CMO
ask a particular question:necessarily leads the entire thing.
ask a particular question:But it usually falls to the CMO to step up within the business and say, I understand
ask a particular question:that we are doing some planning and we are intending to hit this revenue number, for
ask a particular question:example, and expand maybe into these geos.
ask a particular question:And at a high level I understand what we're trying to accomplish as a business.
ask a particular question:Usually, it falls to the CMO to say, okay, but we have to go a click or
ask a particular question:two deeper than that in our strategic planning process and really define how
ask a particular question:it is we're going to hit those revenue targets and what it means for us as a
ask a particular question:business as we expand into new verticals or into new geos or scale in terms
ask a particular question:of the number of people we have here.
ask a particular question:That's important because if you don't do that, what will inevitably happen
ask a particular question:is marketing will be asked to treat everything across the business equally.
ask a particular question:For example, at my business, we're scaling very fast right now.
ask a particular question:We have very clear revenue targets that we want to hit next year, but I had to
ask a particular question:work with the head of sales, head of product, the founders, and really get
ask a particular question:at when we think about hitting that number, what products sold to which
ask a particular question:audience segments do we expect to contribute what percentage to that growth?
ask a particular question:And when I'm armed with that information, which we quickly got to, thankfully, we're
ask a particular question:a very operationally mature business.
ask a particular question:But when we got to agreement on that, that's the information I need to know
ask a particular question:how to focus marketing's investment of resources and efforts so we're
ask a particular question:not spread like peanut butter across everything the business does equally.
ask a particular question:It also puts me in a position to do the most important work as the CMO,
ask a particular question:which is create and protect focus for the marketing organization because,
ask a particular question:invariably, every product has a product manager that has a number on their head.
ask a particular question:You have sales teams that are oriented around different parts of the business.
ask a particular question:And as they observe marketing investing more in one part of the business
ask a particular question:than another part of the business, you're gonna have people come to you
ask a particular question:and be like, hey, what's going on?
ask a particular question:Why aren't you giving the part I care about as much
ask a particular question:attention as this other part?
ask a particular question:So you want to be in a defensible position to say, look, we've all agreed that this
ask a particular question:other part is going to contribute more to our growth than the part you care most
ask a particular question:about, so I'm investing more over there.
ask a particular question:It really creates an environment where there's shared understanding.
ask a particular question:And I, as the leader of the marketing team, can help everybody understand
ask a particular question:why we're doing the things we're doing and oh, by the way, not doing all of
ask a particular question:those other random things and treating everything equally across the business.
ask a particular question:I think that's great because it really puts marketing in the
ask a particular question:driver's seat of growth, which is what we're all talking about.
ask a particular question:But I think a lot of marketers they decide, like, I'm going to inherit
ask a particular question:the strategic plan from the CMO, and then I'm going to do my marketing.
ask a particular question:But you're right, there can be this kind of gap between CEO can set the plan and
ask a particular question:that plan might be, we're going to double in two years or we're going to increase
ask a particular question:our ARR growth rate to blah, blah, blah.
ask a particular question:But then it's easy to fall into these random acts of marketing or this, what
ask a particular question:I like to call, a vending machine kind of marketing, where it's like, oh, hey,
ask a particular question:we're just going to press on the belly of the marketing person and a campaign
ask a particular question:is going to come out or a new sales enablement toolkit is going to come out.
ask a particular question:So I can totally see that.
ask a particular question:You've scaled marketing at several companies now.
ask a particular question:How often do you revisit that plan?
ask a particular question:Because it would seem that every once in a while, you might want to
ask a particular question:go back and say, okay that person has been asking for marketing resources.
ask a particular question:Maybe we actually do want to allocate some resources to that.
ask a particular question:So, I'm curious about revisiting the plan and also the corollary
ask a particular question:of revisiting the budget.
ask a particular question:Well, you can't be too rigid.
ask a particular question:You have to adapt as you go, especially if you're at a relatively early stage
ask a particular question:company, which typically are the companies that are scaling the fastest, right?
ask a particular question:Things change over the course of a quarter, not just a year, but
ask a particular question:things can change pretty quickly.
ask a particular question:So you do have to be flexible and willing to adapt.
ask a particular question:You want to be revisiting it almost constantly.
ask a particular question:To that end, the idea that we have to revisit the marketing plan, for example,
ask a particular question:based on shifts that are happening at a high level in the business and the
ask a particular question:business's plan because you're learning as you go, everybody's learning.
ask a particular question:To make it easy to revisit that marketing plan, I do this thing that
ask a particular question:I call a marketing plan on a page.
ask a particular question:My mission is literally to get the marketing plan on a single page that
ask a particular question:lays out our primary objectives and how they link to the primary business
ask a particular question:goals, how we're executing to achieve those goals, how we're measuring it,
ask a particular question:and the risks and dependencies that exist that are going to get us there.
ask a particular question:It doesn't get into marketing activity planning, that's separate, but it gets
ask a particular question:into the strategic plan for marketing.
ask a particular question:If that's in place, and it's nicely, clearly defined business goals, when you
ask a particular question:do have to revisit it, it's easy to do and you can have a rational conversation
ask a particular question:about how things are going to change.
ask a particular question:Again, if you can go back to the corporate strategy and the corporate
ask a particular question:goals that are hopefully very clear, then you can say is, say, okay, it
ask a particular question:appears we need to change because this other thing has changed, but that means
ask a particular question:we're not going to do this other thing.
ask a particular question:So you can do a bit of, I don't want to call it horse trading, but it's
ask a particular question:trade-offs and make it very clear to people that we have X amount
ask a particular question:of resources, X amount of budget.
ask a particular question:Are we going to get more budget?
ask a particular question:Typically, the answer is no, but you never know.
ask a particular question:These days, actually, it's increasingly yes, you can have more budget.
ask a particular question:And if you can agree to that, you can say, okay if we're going to do it
ask a particular question:then there's a few other things that we're not going to do, or we're not
ask a particular question:going to give as much attention to.
ask a particular question:And if you have that starting point of agreement on focus and how you're going to
ask a particular question:grow, if anything changes the trade-offs become pretty clear, pretty obvious.
ask a particular question:Something increases in importance and another thing diminishes, and you can
ask a particular question:adjust your resources accordingly.
ask a particular question:What's harder to do is adjust people accordingly.
ask a particular question:Moving budget around is relatively easy, changing up some programs
ask a particular question:and tactic mixes, and that sort of thing is relatively easy.
ask a particular question:But as you're scaling, you're also building a marketing organization
ask a particular question:that's designed to do certain things.
ask a particular question:Hopefully, you're not just building it randomly.
ask a particular question:And that gets a little bit harder.
ask a particular question:So especially when I'm at earlier stage companies where I know change
ask a particular question:can be anticipated, it's going to come, I try to populate my team with
ask a particular question:people who are multi-position players.
ask a particular question:People who, yes, they have strong skill sets, for example, in
ask a particular question:product marketing, but guess what?
ask a particular question:They've done a little bit of customer marketing, as well, and maybe they've
ask a particular question:got a little demand in their background.
ask a particular question:So that as things change, people are able to wear a few hats.
ask a particular question:It's really important that people can be flexible.
ask a particular question:I also, as I'm bringing people on, I get them ready for that.
ask a particular question:I make it very clear that, hey, you're joining a company that's at this stage.
ask a particular question:We're scaling quickly.
ask a particular question:We're going to be learning as we go.
ask a particular question:So we all have to be flexible.
ask a particular question:We all have to be willing to wear a bunch of hats.
ask a particular question:And guess what?
ask a particular question:Our roles might shift a little bit as we go along.
ask a particular question:Are you down for that?
ask a particular question:Is that something that you're okay with as you join us?
ask a particular question:That makes it a bit easier, but people change is the hardest, I think.
ask a particular question:Can you talk about an organizational misstep that you made at some point?
ask a particular question:Sure, I'd be happy to.
ask a particular question:Let me think.
ask a particular question:The problem isn't finding one.
ask a particular question:The problem is picking one.
ask a particular question:I've become successful through a series of mistakes that I've
ask a particular question:learned through in my career.
ask a particular question:I would say the biggest one that I made, and this was probably my first CMO role,
ask a particular question:I was building an organization essentially from scratch and it was in a company
ask a particular question:that had been around for about twenty years, but was just releasing some new
ask a particular question:products and extending into new markets.
ask a particular question:So we were scaling pretty quickly.
ask a particular question:When I joined, there were two people and I grew us to about twenty-seven people over
ask a particular question:the course of about a year and a half.
ask a particular question:My background was very much oriented around digital marketing and demand.
ask a particular question:I had some product marketing background and some other things as well, but I was
ask a particular question:really focused on demand and I completely over-rotated around demand as I was
ask a particular question:building out my marketing organization.
ask a particular question:I brought on a lot of people who were really good at demand.
ask a particular question:I made that part of the function just really big, kind of too big.
ask a particular question:I forgot the fact that demand needs to be fed by all kinds of other stuff
ask a particular question:like really great product marketing and really great content and all
ask a particular question:sorts of other things, and really good comms and messaging and all that.
ask a particular question:So, I kind of failed at creating all the demand I expected to make 'cause
ask a particular question:I just had too many demand-focused and experienced people and not
ask a particular question:enough of the other people that were going to feed that demand engine.
ask a particular question:It was just a lack of foresight and, frankly, being too focused on what
ask a particular question:I knew best, if that make sense.
ask a particular question:That's so interesting because I think a lot of CEOs, I mean, god bless
ask a particular question:them, but they're like overgrown salespeople in many cases and they love
ask a particular question:the idea of a marketing organization that's over-rotated on demand.
ask a particular question:So it sounds good in theory until you realize you can pour more budget into
ask a particular question:it, but there are diminishing returns.
ask a particular question:And you're right.
ask a particular question:I like to think of it as you need the product marketing and branding
ask a particular question:people to help you point and then the demand gen people to help you shoot.
ask a particular question:That's a very over simplistic way to think about it, but there is that piece.
ask a particular question:It's accurate, though.
ask a particular question:To your point, the CEO at that company was cheering me on the whole way,
ask a particular question:loved the fact that I was building out this huge demand organization.
ask a particular question:Since then, including at the company I'm at now and my last
ask a particular question:company, the same is true.
ask a particular question:CEOs, especially of early stage SaaS companies, they want that demand and
ask a particular question:they're right to want that, but in both cases I've gotten a lot of pressure.
ask a particular question:Are you sure that's enough demand people?
ask a particular question:Which has offered me the opportunity to get into really how demand is fed.
ask a particular question:Effective demand comes from the crews over all the things that marketing does.
ask a particular question:I would especially emphasize product marketing 'cause you're right, we
ask a particular question:have to have a depth of understanding of not just our products, but our
ask a particular question:audiences, and really strong positioning and competitive intelligence and
ask a particular question:great content and all of that stuff.
ask a particular question:If those are in place, then demand becomes far more effective.
ask a particular question:So I've had to do that repeatedly to avoid making the same mistake
ask a particular question:that I made in that first CMO role I had because it's easy to go along.
ask a particular question:When your CEO is like "Build demand!"
ask a particular question:Of course you just want to go along, but that's when you've
ask a particular question:got to step up and explain.
ask a particular question:It makes me think of a former boss of mine who says, "Today's
ask a particular question:brand is tomorrow's demand."
ask a particular question:Once I heard that
ask a particular question:- I love that.
ask a particular question:I know it's great, right?
ask a particular question:So I started a list of things to say to a CEO who is thinking more on the
ask a particular question:demand side than on the brand side.
ask a particular question:It might be over-rotating, to use your word.
ask a particular question:Are there others catchphrases that you have seen work to
ask a particular question:communicate that to a CEO?
ask a particular question:'Cause I feel like that's half of my job, that's half of a CMO's job is
ask a particular question:to educate and guide a CEO and not get into so much of the weeds, but
ask a particular question:get them to see what's going to help make things work and make things grow.
ask a particular question:Yeah.
ask a particular question:So I don't know if they're as catchy as the one that you just had, but a
ask a particular question:few things that I've said and have said repeatedly that seem to resonate
ask a particular question:and seem to work are things like I've talked to quite a bit about the fact
ask a particular question:that awareness and trust fuel demand.
ask a particular question:That's the context that creates the ability to engage audiences, build
ask a particular question:audience, and convert audience because you can have the coolest product in the world,
ask a particular question:but if you're just driving people to demos without them understanding who you are,
ask a particular question:without them trusting you, any of that being in place, chances are, you're not
ask a particular question:going to be very effective at doing that.
ask a particular question:Obviously, "content is king."
ask a particular question:Content is also "the fuel that drives the demand engine" is another big one.
ask a particular question:That's become less of a problem.
ask a particular question:But as recently as six, seven years ago, I literally had to sit down with some
ask a particular question:people and just explain to them why yes, we have to invest in creating content.
ask a particular question:I guess a catchphrase I use around that is "what marketing should be delivering
ask a particular question:to our prospects all the time is value."
ask a particular question:It's all about value and there is no value in asking people to watch that
ask a particular question:demo video or fill out that form.
ask a particular question:All of the value is in that content that's created.
ask a particular question:Oh, and by the way, brand as well and awareness and trust is built
ask a particular question:if you can deliver value over time.
ask a particular question:The other thing I've been thinking about lately is, there's always this
ask a particular question:brand versus demand kind of thing and I think now there's a growing awareness
ask a particular question:of the holistic approach to marketing.
ask a particular question:I'm seeing more and more CEOs want the demand and the brand.
ask a particular question:There's just this concern that the brand person is going to be a typical B2C
ask a particular question:person, or the perception of a typical B2C person, who's just going to go and
ask a particular question:find an agency and spend a million dollars and that's going to be so expensive.
ask a particular question:What I've been thinking about lately is what you really want is the
ask a particular question:tight cycles of test and learn, not just for your performance and your
ask a particular question:demand gen, but also for branding.
ask a particular question:So I've been asking people how quickly can you test out a message?
ask a particular question:How do you test out a message?
ask a particular question:How do you swap it out, et cetera, which I think can be a helpful way of thinking.
ask a particular question:Testing is difficult when it comes to that stuff, I find.
ask a particular question:In the world of demand, obviously, testing a subject line or a call to action is
ask a particular question:pretty straightforward, assuming you have a big enough audience to do relevant AB
ask a particular question:and multivariate testing and all of that.
ask a particular question:But testing messaging can be a lot harder and it takes a little bit longer
ask a particular question:to figure out what's actually working and resonating and what's not from a
ask a particular question:positioning and messaging standpoint.
ask a particular question:The way I like to do it is that it's not just marketing's job.
ask a particular question:Obviously, you want to do your work up front.
ask a particular question:You want to pass things by actual customers and prospects and talk to
ask a particular question:your salespeople and all of that.
ask a particular question:I'll give you an example, a tangible one.
ask a particular question:We just launched a new product in my company earlier this week
ask a particular question:and it's pretty groundbreaking.
ask a particular question:It's a pretty new concept.
ask a particular question:And we had to be very cautious about how we message around it and position
ask a particular question:it because, without getting into too much detail, it could change
ask a particular question:the way people perceive our company and it could provide an opportunity
ask a particular question:for our competition to misposition us if we didn't get it just right.
ask a particular question:And I'm brand new so I spent a lot of time talking to customers and people who have
ask a particular question:been at the company longer than myself.
ask a particular question:But now that it's launched, one of the things I set up right off the
ask a particular question:bat was a feedback cycle from our frontline people, our salespeople,
ask a particular question:our customer success people who are going to be talking to the recipients
ask a particular question:of this message all the time and ask them to constantly create feedback.
ask a particular question:But also to set up a series of regular meetings where we're going to sit in
ask a particular question:a room and I'm asking them to tell me, from their point of view, how it's
ask a particular question:going because it's not always visible to us in marketing as immediately
ask a particular question:as it is to those other folks.
ask a particular question:So that helps a lot.
ask a particular question:I like that.
ask a particular question:That's awesome.
ask a particular question:You're right, you're going to get sick of your messaging well before your
ask a particular question:customers will and that's probably a good thing for you to be ahead of that.
ask a particular question:So we talked about organization stuff.
ask a particular question:Is there a really unique organizational decision that you have either seen
ask a particular question:or implemented yourself that funnily worked but you didn't expect would
ask a particular question:work during a period of rapid scaling?
ask a particular question:That's a good question.
ask a particular question:I'm trying to think.
ask a particular question:Marketing organizational design is something that I've done more of than
ask a particular question:I care to even either think about.
ask a particular question:Because, as you know, I spent ten years as an analyst as well, working
ask a particular question:with CMOs, and one of my areas of expertise was organizational design.
ask a particular question:So I've done it across dozens of companies at various scales.
ask a particular question:I'm trying to decide there's this demand center thing, but that's more
ask a particular question:like companies that are at scale.
ask a particular question:I think for companies that are smaller and scaling quickly, probably the
ask a particular question:most unique one and the one that I still get pushback on quite a bit.
ask a particular question:In fact, I'm hiring this person, my new company right now, is this idea of a
ask a particular question:senior leader who is head of campaigns.
ask a particular question:It sounds logical and pretty obvious, but when you're a relatively small
ask a particular question:company that's scaling pretty rapidly and you're the head of
ask a particular question:marketing, oftentimes the pushback you'll get is why is that necessary?
ask a particular question:We're pretty narrowly focused.
ask a particular question:We're not that complex in how we're going to market.
ask a particular question:Oh, and by the way, isn't that your job as the head of marketing to
ask a particular question:play that role of head of campaigns?
ask a particular question:Because the way I define the head of campaigns is somebody who is helping to
ask a particular question:coordinate activity across marketing, make it cohesive and programmatic to
ask a particular question:drive the desired optimal outcomes that you're trying to drive.
ask a particular question:At a relatively small scale of company, you would say, well, yeah, that's
ask a particular question:definitely something that the head of marketing can and should be doing.
ask a particular question:But I found bringing somebody in who owns that role completely and all the
ask a particular question:time, is critically important and plays, again, this effect of focusing and
ask a particular question:aligning within marketing everything that we're doing in a huge way because I, as
ask a particular question:the head of marketing, in this rapidly scaling company, have many, many jobs.
ask a particular question:I can give that a bit of my attention and if it's only getting
ask a particular question:a bit of somebody's attention, it's not getting enough attention.
ask a particular question:So it's one of those things that I've found to be very valuable
ask a particular question:and that person oftentimes ends up becoming my right-hand person.
ask a particular question:I will say that the last person who had that role for me is now CMO of a
ask a particular question:really great company in their own right.
ask a particular question:The person who had the role before that person is also a CMO.
ask a particular question:So it's this path to the CMO role because you're organizing a lot of what
ask a particular question:marketing is doing, a lot of coordination across all of what marketing does.
ask a particular question:And again, it sounds like something that a big company would have,
ask a particular question:but not a smaller company, but I think it's critical very early on.
ask a particular question:And how was that role different from a head of demand gen?
ask a particular question:Good question.
ask a particular question:So for example, the role I'm hiring for right now is Head of Demand and Campaigns.
ask a particular question:I oftentimes blend them together and the same is true at Sirius.
ask a particular question:It's different in the sense that a head of demand, what I found is if
ask a particular question:you're just kind of director of demand or VP of demand or whatever it is,
ask a particular question:you are very exclusively focused on designing and executing demand programs
ask a particular question:that generate leads, or focused on end-to-end demand management.
ask a particular question:You're working with ops to measure it.
ask a particular question:Whereas this campaigns person is taking a much more holistic view and saying,
ask a particular question:when I think about all the work we're doing across brand and comms and product
ask a particular question:marketing and digital and all of those things, how do I make sure that they
ask a particular question:are accruing to cohesive programs that drive ideal demand outcomes?
ask a particular question:I should mention, without getting too deep into it, this role becomes
ask a particular question:necessary when you take a specific approach to your go-to-market strategy.
ask a particular question:I take a campaign framework based approach to go-to-market and was something that
ask a particular question:was developed at Sirius when I was there.
ask a particular question:It's something that I've implemented many times.
ask a particular question:I've seen it work over and over again, and it basically aligns
ask a particular question:all sub functions within marketing around a set of programs and a mix
ask a particular question:of tactics to drive optimal outcomes.
ask a particular question:The reason I blend demand into that role is because, at the stage I'm
ask a particular question:at, and usually when you're scaling rapidly, the primary arrow comes
ask a particular question:through trying to drive our demand.
ask a particular question:So that's why I blend them.
ask a particular question:Thank you so much for sharing.
ask a particular question:That's going to be great for folks to hear about.
ask a particular question:So we talked about organization, let's talk about hiring.
ask a particular question:One thing that people can struggle with is, should I hire fast, or
ask a particular question:should I hire slow and fire fast?
ask a particular question:Can you talk about how you've thought about it?
ask a particular question:What's a CMO to do?
ask a particular question:What's your perspective now?
ask a particular question:In my two and a half months in my current role right now, I've probably spent 60%
ask a particular question:of my time on hiring, and that's painful because there's so much else to do.
ask a particular question:But I also know my greatest risk of not being able to do what I know I
ask a particular question:need to do for the business will be not having the right people in place.
ask a particular question:So I have to give it time.
ask a particular question:That means writing really good job descriptions, reaching out to my
ask a particular question:network and engaging them in every way I can, talking to people like yourself.
ask a particular question:I think I've reached out to you a couple of times along the way.
ask a particular question:It's really critical.
ask a particular question:Then, engaging the rest of my business as well.
ask a particular question:I get our COO, our head of sales, other people involved in the hiring process
ask a particular question:too, and the interviewing process.
ask a particular question:So it's not just me making these decisions along the way.
ask a particular question:And as my team grows, my team gets involved in it as well.
ask a particular question:My current company, AgentSync, we are scaling very, very fast.
ask a particular question:I think I was in the low seventies two and a half months ago, and
ask a particular question:we've surpassed a hundred people.
ask a particular question:And we're just adding more and more and more, very quickly.
ask a particular question:And we, as a leadership team, know that our greatest risk to us not
ask a particular question:hitting our number is not getting the right people in place fast enough.
ask a particular question:That's across everything from engineering to customer success, to sales, to
ask a particular question:marketing, and everything in between, program management, you name it.
ask a particular question:Yet, we made a deliberate decision as a team, and this was top-down from our
ask a particular question:founders, that we're willing to miss our goals to slow down the hiring a little
ask a particular question:bit to make sure we hire the right people, but also hit our diversity, equity,
ask a particular question:and inclusion goals, which I can tell you is having the effect of actually
ask a particular question:helping us bring on talent a lot faster.
ask a particular question:A commitment to DEI, for example, and a commitment to work-life balance that
ask a particular question:is tangible and very real, is the kind of thing that's a differentiator today.
ask a particular question:We find that people care about and want to join companies that are truly
ask a particular question:committed to that and see companies taking action, not just speaking to it.
ask a particular question:For example, I think I shared this story with you on the work-life
ask a particular question:balance thing as we've been on boarding and bringing on a lot of people.
ask a particular question:Everybody who's a go-to-market hire in sales and marketing and product,
ask a particular question:the CEO still talks to as the final stage in that interviewing process.
ask a particular question:We're going to get past that point pretty quickly, but we're still at
ask a particular question:the scale where we can handle that.
ask a particular question:And the CEO has a new young daughter at home.
ask a particular question:So as I was hiring my initial hires, when I first joined and said we've
ask a particular question:got to set you up to talk to Niji, our CEO, there were moments where we said,
ask a particular question:ooh, well, Niji can't do it after a certain time because that's family time.
ask a particular question:He spends that time with his daughter.
ask a particular question:And when these people then joined the company, they told me that was the
ask a particular question:deciding factor, hearing that your CEO set aside that time for family every evening
ask a particular question:was all I needed to hear to know that this is the kind of company I want to be at.
ask a particular question:It was unintentional.
ask a particular question:It was just a nice side effect.
ask a particular question:But also being able to tell the story and demonstrate through our actions
ask a particular question:and how we bring people on that we are really dedicated to achieving very
ask a particular question:aggressive DEI goals is something that really appeals to a lot of people and
ask a particular question:causes them to want to be with us.
ask a particular question:So this kind of decision we made that we're going to slow down to get this
ask a particular question:right has actually helped us accelerate in a strange way, in terms of our ability
ask a particular question:to bring on the people we really want.
ask a particular question:I think that's great.
ask a particular question:It just speaks to the fact that what people want out of their jobs is changing.
ask a particular question:I don't want to say they're looking for a family, there's a little bit of that.
ask a particular question:But when a company and an employee come together, it's like you're
ask a particular question:hiring the whole person and you're ingesting the whole company.
ask a particular question:That is very different from how it used to be.
ask a particular question:What I'm seeing on the hiring side is, I always ask people,
ask a particular question:what are the top three things that you're looking for from a company?
ask a particular question:It used to be upside is key, and I need this industry and I need this growth
ask a particular question:rate, and that can still be important, but what I'm hearing more and more
ask a particular question:is this pivot towards a really great culture, a really great leadership team,
ask a particular question:integrity, transparency, authenticity.
ask a particular question:It makes me realize that those things that you think are, not a throwaway
ask a particular question:thing, but, okay, the CEO's busy with his kid, but these signals become almost
ask a particular question:the most important thing to put forward.
ask a particular question:It's not that they're intangible, but they need to come across naturally.
ask a particular question:It's not the kind of thing that I think can be forced, so it's gotta be authentic.
ask a particular question:It's gotta be just an actual part of the culture and the way that the
ask a particular question:business is for it to be effective.
ask a particular question:And I think you're right, with COVID and so much that's happened over the past
ask a particular question:year and a half plus, people's values have shifted in very tangible and real ways.
ask a particular question:People want to be part of successful businesses that are growing, but they
ask a particular question:also, for the most part, and I know I'm making generalizations now, aren't
ask a particular question:all that interested in being part of growth-at-all-costs kind of companies,
ask a particular question:like sacrifice all elements of your personal life to achieve these goals.
ask a particular question:I know I personally have no interest in being part of that, and I think
ask a particular question:that's pretty common these days.
ask a particular question:It's not as cool as it once was to talk about how sleep deprived
ask a particular question:you are and how you have no life because all you do is work.
ask a particular question:I think that's out right now and I'm glad.
ask a particular question:Exactly.
ask a particular question:The world has changed and companies need to change along
ask a particular question:with it to get the top talent.
ask a particular question:My last question for you is can you share your favorite interview question?
ask a particular question:What is the question that you find most revealing when you
ask a particular question:interview people for your team?
ask a particular question:Sure.
ask a particular question:It's a tough one 'cause I have a few that I really, really like to ask.
ask a particular question:The one I'll talk about, and it sounds like it's a very cliche question, but
ask a particular question:I like to think that the way I do it is a little bit different and it actually
ask a particular question:links to what we were just talking about because I do think that part of
ask a particular question:the shift that I perceived happening in the world is people allowing themselves
ask a particular question:to be a little bit more vulnerable than we used to allow ourselves to be.
ask a particular question:And just more human than we used to allow ourselves to be.
ask a particular question:One of my favorite questions starts with me telling a story about
ask a particular question:myself, a very self-effacing story.
ask a particular question:I pick from a few where I just failed miserably at something, like
ask a particular question:I really got something wrong or something I'm really not good at.
ask a particular question:And I tell it in a very tangible way, like I really mean it,
ask a particular question:and I make myself vulnerable.
ask a particular question:Then I ask the person to tell me a similar story about themselves.
ask a particular question:So, it's kind of cliche in the sense that it's like, hey, what's your
ask a particular question:greatest weakness kind of question.
ask a particular question:But again, I do it in such a way where I make myself vulnerable and I'm seeing if
ask a particular question:this person who I'm talking to, who, by the way, is in an interview situation,
ask a particular question:which is difficult to begin with, is willing to be honest and vulnerable in
ask a particular question:that situation and be very open with me.
ask a particular question:Because very often what people will respond with are things like "I care
ask a particular question:too much," or "I just work too hard."
ask a particular question:And that's not what I'm looking for.
ask a particular question:I'm looking for somebody to get pretty honest and be like, you know
ask a particular question:what, here's something that I really messed up or that I'm really not good
ask a particular question:at, and by the way, I don't think I'm ever going to be good at it.
ask a particular question:That's real.
ask a particular question:I love hearing that from people because it tells me that they're
ask a particular question:human, they're willing to get vulnerable, and they're going to
ask a particular question:be transparent, which I care about.
ask a particular question:There's a lot of stuff I'm not good at.
ask a particular question:And the extent to which I'm honest about that with others and myself is the extent
ask a particular question:to which I can augment myself and build really good teams and be effective.
ask a particular question:So that's a big one that I like to ask.
ask a particular question:The other one, 'cause I have to say two, sorry.
ask a particular question:The other one is, usually at the end, I ask them, "Is there anything I didn't
ask a particular question:ask you that you wish I had asked you?"
ask a particular question:It's just fascinating to see what people come out with.
ask a particular question:Some people are totally stumped.
ask a particular question:Other people come out with really revealing things.
ask a particular question:Because if there is something that they wish I had asked that I hadn't asked,
ask a particular question:it's because there was something they really want to tell me about themselves
ask a particular question:that they haven't had a chance to.
ask a particular question:So it gives them a window to do that.
ask a particular question:Do you get more personal and more professional stories from that?
ask a particular question:It's fascinating, I get a mix of the two.
ask a particular question:I would say it's weighted towards more professional, but
ask a particular question:- actually, I wouldn't say that.
ask a particular question:It might be weighted towards more personal.
ask a particular question:Usually, people tell me something about themselves that they're really proud of.
ask a particular question:So I think it's a mix of the two, but I just find it interesting
ask a particular question:to see what people say.
ask a particular question:It also helps me get better too, because I get great ideas for other
ask a particular question:questions to ask when they tell me what I should have asked that I didn't.
ask a particular question:Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I think so much of interviewing,
ask a particular question:on both sides, is just getting comfortable with the other person.
ask a particular question:And while there is a professional benefit to somebody who can admit that they
ask a particular question:don't know it all or have some soft spots that they need to augment themselves
ask a particular question:around, I think a big piece is it makes the interviewer feel more comfortable.
ask a particular question:Oh, I'm actually getting at the real person here and it's not just
ask a particular question:some polished interview thing.
ask a particular question:Thank you so much for sharing Jay.
ask a particular question:This has been great to chat with you and I appreciate all of your insights on scaling
ask a particular question:and org design and hiring, and I really appreciate your insights for the show.
ask a particular question:So thank you again.
ask a particular question:Well, thank you, Erica.
ask a particular question:It was really fun to be here.
ask a particular question:That was Jay Gaines, who runs marketing for SaaS insuretech scaleup AgentSync, and
ask a particular question:earlier was the CMO of SiriusDecisions, sharing some hard-won do's and don'ts on
ask a particular question:scaling -- and focus -- for B2B SaaS CMOs.
ask a particular question:Next time on The Get, we'll do a deep dive on budgeting for marketing during growth
ask a particular question:with CMO scale-up queen Kristin Hambelton.
ask a particular question:Don't miss it.
ask a particular question:Thanks for listening to The Get.
ask a particular question:I'm your host Erica Seidel.
ask a particular question:Hiring great marketing leaders is not easy.
ask a particular question:The Get is designed to inspire smart decisions around recruiting and
ask a particular question:leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.
ask a particular question:We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top
ask a particular question:marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.
ask a particular question:This season's theme is Solving for the Scale Journey.
ask a particular question:If you liked this episode, please share it.
ask a particular question:For other insights and recruiting great marketing leaders, what I
ask a particular question:call the 'make money' marketing leaders rather than the 'make it
ask a particular question:pretty' ones, follow me on LinkedIn.
ask a particular question:You can also sign up for my newsletter at TheConnectiveGood.com.
ask a particular question:The Get is produced by Evo Terra and Simpler Media Productions.
