Building a Win-Win Relationship With Your Board

Erica Seidel: 00:00:02

Hello, and welcome to The Get.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:04

I'm your host, Erica Seidel.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:07

This season we examine the relationship between CMOs and Boards.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:11

How can that relationship go from fraught to functional,

Erica Seidel: 00:00:14

and maybe even to fantastic?

Erica Seidel: 00:00:17

Today we hear from Elana Anderson.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:19

She and I overlapped at Forrester way back in the day, and since then, she has had

Erica Seidel: 00:00:24

an awesome career as a marketing leader - from Forrester to IBM, and then Unica.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:28

Then she was CMO at Demandware, which became Salesforce Commerce Cloud.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:33

After that, she was Chief Marketing and Customer Officer at Vidyo, the video

Erica Seidel: 00:00:37

tech company, and then CMO at Veracode.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:40

You'll hear from her on a bunch of interesting topics.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:43

How to leverage Board members for your marketing initiatives - those independent

Erica Seidel: 00:00:47

Board members with big names and impressive resumes can be marketing gold.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:51

How to prepare for an interview with a Board member, and how

Erica Seidel: 00:00:55

to set yourself up for joining Boards yourself and when to start.

Erica Seidel: 00:00:59

Here we go.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:04

Elana, thank you so much, and welcome to the show.

Elana Anderson: 00:01:06

Thanks Erica.

Elana Anderson: 00:01:07

I'm really excited to be with you here today.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:09

Yeah, it's fun to chat after all these years post Forrester.

Elana Anderson: 00:01:12

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:13

I would love to just get right into a really nitty gritty, tough

Erica Seidel: 00:01:18

question for you, which is, you know, you've worked in a lot of settings.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:22

You've led a lot of different marketing teams of different, you know, sizes.

Erica Seidel: 00:01:25

Can you share a hard-won lesson you have had from interacting with a

Erica Seidel: 00:01:28

Board, like something that really sticks out in your experience?

Elana Anderson: 00:01:32

I have to say, I'm always happier when I'm talking

Elana Anderson: 00:01:35

to the Board about numbers.

Elana Anderson: 00:01:37

You know, topics like pipeline, deal flow, you know, numbers are

Elana Anderson: 00:01:42

much more in the Board's lane and I know I can go toe-to-toe on topics

Elana Anderson: 00:01:47

like MQLs and SQLs and pipeline conversion and bookings conversion.

Elana Anderson: 00:01:52

So, but maybe not a hard-won lesson there.

Elana Anderson: 00:01:54

So I think one, one thing that would always make me cringe was when my

Elana Anderson: 00:02:00

CEO would ask me to do like a special update for the Board on brand.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:05

Those would invariably turn out to be one of those sessions where investor

Elana Anderson: 00:02:10

members of the Board might step out of the room immediately or, you

Elana Anderson: 00:02:13

know, they'd dive into their phones or, you know, that sort of thing.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:17

But the last time I had to do one of those sessions, I swore I was going to

Elana Anderson: 00:02:21

figure out how to keep them engaged.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:23

So after all they had, they had actually funded the, the

Elana Anderson: 00:02:29

Board, the, the brand refresh.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:30

So they had, they put a lot of money into it, so I figured I owed them a session.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:35

So I made it interactive.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:36

We were, we were doing this major refresh and we, I started

Elana Anderson: 00:02:40

out with a little brand quiz.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:42

So throwing out little tiny brand elements about very well-known brands that they

Elana Anderson: 00:02:47

would, they would recognize and know and had them identify those brands.

Elana Anderson: 00:02:52

And then I, I took those elements and compared and contrasted our old

Elana Anderson: 00:02:57

versus new to illustrate some of the opportunities that we had, and

Elana Anderson: 00:03:01

then, and then how the new brand was addressing those opportunities.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:06

Now, so this engaged them.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:07

It got them talking.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:08

It turned some lights on.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:10

I got them to know me and my quirky personality a bit more.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:14

And it was great because that evening at the Board dinner,

Elana Anderson: 00:03:17

several of them came up to me.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:19

We talked a lot more.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:20

I actually sat next to our chairman that night at dinner, and I,

Elana Anderson: 00:03:23

I felt that it really opened a door for me, um, with that group.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:27

So I, you know, I, I suppose in retrospect, it's a bit of a dull lesson,

Elana Anderson: 00:03:31

you know, for a market, for a marketer, but, you know, the, the lesson is figure

Elana Anderson: 00:03:35

out how to engage your audience, right?

Erica Seidel: 00:03:37

Yeah.

Elana Anderson: 00:03:37

Obviously Marketing 101, you know, you know that numbers

Elana Anderson: 00:03:41

are gonna engage the Board, but if you have a topic that's short on numbers,

Elana Anderson: 00:03:45

like a, a rebrand topic, how do you make that interesting and impactful?

Elana Anderson: 00:03:50

I chose to make it interactive, right, and, and use brands that I knew they

Elana Anderson: 00:03:55

had opinions on, or would be aware of to make a case for why we had to do

Elana Anderson: 00:03:59

something, you know, about our own brand.

Erica Seidel: 00:04:02

How exactly did you make it interactive and what was the aha

Erica Seidel: 00:04:07

that they had as you worked with them?

Elana Anderson: 00:04:11

Well, so I ki- kind of made it fun, right?

Elana Anderson: 00:04:13

I mean, and recognize this isn't like an hour session, this is probably

Elana Anderson: 00:04:16

right, 20 minutes, you know, 25 minutes at, at most that you have

Elana Anderson: 00:04:20

to, you know, have this discussion.

Elana Anderson: 00:04:23

So it has to be impactful and quick.

Elana Anderson: 00:04:26

And so I put up little brand elements.

Elana Anderson: 00:04:30

So a color or part of a tagline about a particular brand and had

Elana Anderson: 00:04:36

them, well, who is this brand?

Elana Anderson: 00:04:39

And when you can immediately identify who that brand is, that tells you something.

Elana Anderson: 00:04:44

And, and then, and if I show you, well, who's this brand?

Elana Anderson: 00:04:48

And you have no idea who that is and it's, and it's us, um, you know, that,

Elana Anderson: 00:04:54

that starts to unveil, well, we have some opportunity or some work to do.

Erica Seidel: 00:04:57

I see.

Elana Anderson: 00:04:58

And then if you can compare and contrast, well,

Elana Anderson: 00:05:00

here's how we're doing it today, whether it's a color change.

Elana Anderson: 00:05:03

I mean, very often what is less interesting to a, a Board member than,

Elana Anderson: 00:05:08

hey, we're changing our colors from, you know, from teal to, you know, purple.

Elana Anderson: 00:05:14

But sometimes that does make a difference.

Elana Anderson: 00:05:17

And so to make it impactful, you get to the opportunity and the whys behind that.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:22

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:23

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:23

That's awesome.

Elana Anderson: 00:05:24

You know, if I'm gonna tell you my towering strengths

Elana Anderson: 00:05:26

also, my towering strengths are not about the visual and the

Elana Anderson: 00:05:29

color and that sort of thing.

Elana Anderson: 00:05:31

So probably the most fearful I would ever be is having to get in front of a Board

Elana Anderson: 00:05:35

and talk to, you know, here's, here's why we're making visual brand changes.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:40

Right.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:40

Right.

Elana Anderson: 00:05:40

So that was pro- probably the hardest Board

Elana Anderson: 00:05:43

session I've ever had to do.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:45

You mentioned to me previously that you had success

Erica Seidel: 00:05:48

getting value from the Board for your marketing initiatives.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:51

So kind of incorporating them into your marketing initiatives.

Erica Seidel: 00:05:54

So as opposed to just broadcasting out, kind of really integrating

Erica Seidel: 00:05:59

Board stuff into your marketing.

Erica Seidel: 00:06:01

Can you talk about that and share a few examples of that?

Elana Anderson: 00:06:04

I've had the good fortune, um, and most people have this, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:06:08

you have independent Board members on your Board who are generally, uh, they're there

Elana Anderson: 00:06:13

for a reason and they're, it's generally they're experts in your market segment,

Elana Anderson: 00:06:16

or they have, they have some particular expertise and why they're on the Board.

Elana Anderson: 00:06:21

And so I've had great success engaging those individuals

Elana Anderson: 00:06:26

in my marketing activities.

Elana Anderson: 00:06:29

And sometimes, you know, I think marketing execs are reluctant to go and make the

Elana Anderson: 00:06:34

ask, and I've found that Board members are happy to participate and they've

Elana Anderson: 00:06:40

been actually flattered to be asked.

Elana Anderson: 00:06:43

At Demandware, we had, uh, a Board member by the name of Len Schlesinger.

Elana Anderson: 00:06:50

Len is a Harvard Business School professor.

Elana Anderson: 00:06:52

He was formerly the COO of Limited brands, which in his day

Elana Anderson: 00:06:56

owned, um, Victoria's Secret.

Elana Anderson: 00:06:59

We had a customer conference that was a very successful event, but one

Elana Anderson: 00:07:03

of the things that we were trying to do was get more attendance from

Elana Anderson: 00:07:07

an exec level audience, the true business buyer, the business sponsor.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:13

So I asked Len to if he would co-chair or be the guest chair of an

Elana Anderson: 00:07:18

invite-only executive track, and then host a, a half-day workshop for me.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:23

And maybe that was a little gutsy, but he was thrilled, and

Elana Anderson: 00:07:27

the only, only hesitation he had was, you know, the calendar.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:31

So thankfully I asked very early.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:34

He was available that day and he was more than happy to participate.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:38

So, we were then marketing an executive track with a well-known business professor

Elana Anderson: 00:07:46

to retail, you know, commerce executives.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:49

It sold out easily.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:51

We had our ideal profile customer at this event.

Elana Anderson: 00:07:56

They also helped the registration of the overall general event because they

Elana Anderson: 00:08:01

brought more team members to the event.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:03

And the actual event was incredible.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:05

I mean, we had Harvard Business School half-day workshop at the event.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:10

It was, it was incredible.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:12

I think you just need to make the ask.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:14

And then, you know, for you as a marketer, particularly if you have,

Elana Anderson: 00:08:19

you know, if you've been challenged to get in front of the Board, which I

Elana Anderson: 00:08:22

think, you know, marketers may sometimes not feel that they have their airtime

Elana Anderson: 00:08:27

with the Board, you know, it's a great way to establish communication.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:31

Hmm.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:31

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:32

It's a great way to connect with them outside of a Board meeting and-

Elana Anderson: 00:08:35

Exactly.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:35

And have them see you in action in another way.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:39

Exactly.

Erica Seidel: 00:08:39

Why do you think other CMOs don't think about doing this

Erica Seidel: 00:08:43

and don't ask their Board members?

Erica Seidel: 00:08:45

Like I've, I've interviewed a bunch of people for this, and you're the first

Erica Seidel: 00:08:48

one who has mentioned this as an angle.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:52

I think there's an intimidation factor.

Elana Anderson: 00:08:55

I think, I think that, you know, in some cases people, CMOs may not feel

Elana Anderson: 00:09:00

like they have the license to do it.

Elana Anderson: 00:09:03

Um, they may not feel that they have the access.

Elana Anderson: 00:09:05

Maybe the CEO's, you know, a gatekeeper.

Elana Anderson: 00:09:08

So I'd say ask, you know, it's a, uh, I have not, never had a no for an answer.

Elana Anderson: 00:09:14

You know, maybe I've had, well, I'm not available that day, but, uh, but

Elana Anderson: 00:09:17

more often than not, Board members have been thrilled to, to participate.

Erica Seidel: 00:09:22

How else have they participated?

Erica Seidel: 00:09:24

Like, even in small ways, how else have you bought them into your, you know, kind

Erica Seidel: 00:09:27

of day to day as a, as a marketing leader?

Elana Anderson: 00:09:30

Yeah, so in my last company I had, uh, one of our Board

Elana Anderson: 00:09:34

members was really expert sort of on the partner ecosystem, you know, and he was

Elana Anderson: 00:09:39

more than happy to sit down with me and the partner team, you know, engage in

Elana Anderson: 00:09:43

a detailed dialogue in that, you know.

Elana Anderson: 00:09:46

More than happy to, um, cons, you know, be consultative with us in terms

Elana Anderson: 00:09:51

of who, how we were prioritizing the relationships that we were building.

Erica Seidel: 00:09:56

Did you ever tap a Board member to interview somebody?

Erica Seidel: 00:10:00

Like say you were interviewing for a partner, marketing, I don't know, VP

Erica Seidel: 00:10:03

on your team, would you have tapped the Board member to interview that person?

Elana Anderson: 00:10:08

I haven't done that.

Elana Anderson: 00:10:09

That's a good idea.

Elana Anderson: 00:10:10

I have gotten referrals from Board members, certainly.

Elana Anderson: 00:10:14

And also, um, now that you mentioned it, I've, you know, again, both ways,

Elana Anderson: 00:10:18

if I've had a question, um, I've been in p-backed companies and another company

Elana Anderson: 00:10:25

in the portfolio had already gone through something that we were going through, or

Elana Anderson: 00:10:31

about to go through, and I was introduced to the CMO, you know, from that company

Elana Anderson: 00:10:37

and had some great dialogue and lessons learned from, from that individual.

Elana Anderson: 00:10:42

And I've had the same, you know, same vice versa.

Elana Anderson: 00:10:45

You know, I've had other CMOs from the portfolio engage with me, you know, and,

Elana Anderson: 00:10:51

and, uh, learn from my, you know, from, from the things that I've been through.

Erica Seidel: 00:10:55

Yeah.

Elana Anderson: 00:10:55

So it's a great, you know, it's a great, uh, the

Elana Anderson: 00:10:58

Board can be a great networking, you know, venue, you know, way to meet

Elana Anderson: 00:11:03

other people as well, avenue, yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:11:05

When, when you've seen marketers switch from one size company

Erica Seidel: 00:11:08

to the next, and when you yourself, has- have made those switches, how

Erica Seidel: 00:11:12

do you need to adapt your approach with working with the Board?

Elana Anderson: 00:11:16

Well, so public Boards have a bit more formality.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:21

You know, there's a formal structure.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:22

They've got their audit committee, the governance committee, the comp committee.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:26

You know, and that's a, that's a, a structure-

Erica Seidel: 00:11:29

Yeah.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:29

that they have to follow.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:31

But, you know, honestly, I've found that in larger companies, so companies that,

Elana Anderson: 00:11:37

you know, may be PE-backed, but they're of a size that could be public, or maybe

Elana Anderson: 00:11:43

they're, you know, they're looking to go public and in the not-too-distant future,

Elana Anderson: 00:11:48

they tend to behave like public companies.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:51

And I've had that conversation at the exec team level.

Elana Anderson: 00:11:54

Um, particularly if you're looking to go public, you wanna be

Elana Anderson: 00:11:58

emulating those behaviors anyway.

Erica Seidel: 00:12:00

Mm-hmm.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:00

You know, so you might have even similar

Elana Anderson: 00:12:03

committees on the Board and, uh, very similar, you know, structured

Elana Anderson: 00:12:08

reporting process with the Board.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:11

You know, similar process for how you're, you know, recording the minutes, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:12:15

for the Board and all of those things.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:17

So, honestly, you know, if I compare of similar size public and private

Elana Anderson: 00:12:23

companies, they operated very similarly, um, from a Board perspective.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:28

Now there was all this reporting that we had to do as a public company.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:32

That's not really the Board stuff, but there's all kinds of stuff you still

Elana Anderson: 00:12:35

ha- you have to do as a marketing, you know, as a CMO that you don't

Elana Anderson: 00:12:39

have to do in a private company.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:41

But, uh, that's, you know, not the Board stuff.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:43

You know, so the differences, I would say, you know, in terms of

Elana Anderson: 00:12:47

interaction are, you know, I've, I've certainly seen smaller VC-backed

Elana Anderson: 00:12:52

companies that are much more casual.

Elana Anderson: 00:12:54

You know, I, I work now, I'm doing a lot of advisory work with smaller companies,

Elana Anderson: 00:12:58

you know, and you may just have a couple of investors on the Board and the CEO and

Elana Anderson: 00:13:02

the founder or something like that, and they may be more, they tend towards, some

Elana Anderson: 00:13:08

are informal, some are very informal.

Elana Anderson: 00:13:11

You know, it depends how many investors there are.

Elana Anderson: 00:13:13

Typically, the more in, you know, if there are multiple investors, maybe they

Elana Anderson: 00:13:17

have a more formal structure because you're, you know, dealing with, you

Elana Anderson: 00:13:20

know, multiple, you know, you're dealing across multiple investor companies.

Elana Anderson: 00:13:25

Um, so they may have a more formalized structure if it's very closely held,

Elana Anderson: 00:13:28

one investor, you know, and a founder.

Elana Anderson: 00:13:31

It can be very loosey-goosey.

Elana Anderson: 00:13:33

So I, you know, I think it really depends on, on those factors.

Elana Anderson: 00:13:37

Um, but when they're very large, I, they tend to be more similar than not.

Erica Seidel: 00:13:42

If a CMO is at a company where the Board is one of these

Erica Seidel: 00:13:45

loosey-goosey, you know, VC, you know, small VC, you know, situation, how

Erica Seidel: 00:13:49

much would you recommend that they impose more formality and structure,

Erica Seidel: 00:13:55

even if they're not asked for it?

Elana Anderson: 00:13:58

Yeah, that's a great question.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:00

I was at a company that wasn't that small actually, but it was, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:14:05

didn't have some of the formal structures that I have seen in other companies.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:10

Um, for example, you know, we didn't have, here are what our corporate

Elana Anderson: 00:14:14

objectives are for the year and here's how we're reporting on those

Elana Anderson: 00:14:17

corporate objectives to the Board, you know, to the company, et cetera.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:21

You know, so, I stepped in, in that case and, you know, worked across the

Elana Anderson: 00:14:25

executive team to say, what are, you know, what are the corporate objectives?

Elana Anderson: 00:14:30

Let's write them down.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:31

Let's, you know, let's report them to the Board.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:34

You know, let's report them to the company.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:36

Let's, you know, define how we're going to measure them.

Elana Anderson: 00:14:39

You know, I, I think if you see a gap like that, there is certainly an

Elana Anderson: 00:14:45

opportunity to step in and fill that gap and, you know, in, in that particular

Elana Anderson: 00:14:51

organization, you know, I do think it, the, the, the chairman in that case

Elana Anderson: 00:14:56

of our Board did recognize, you know, that I was stepping in and doing that.

Elana Anderson: 00:15:00

And, you know, um, he later engaged me in some strategic

Elana Anderson: 00:15:04

initiatives for the company.

Erica Seidel: 00:15:06

Now, is there a difference in terms of CMO interactions with

Erica Seidel: 00:15:11

the Board as a company scales, and can you, can you talk through those?

Erica Seidel: 00:15:16

You know, so, because a lot of, a lot of people are with these scale-ups that are

Erica Seidel: 00:15:19

going from, I don't know, 10 million to 50 million, or 50 million to a 100 million

Erica Seidel: 00:15:23

in ARI, or a 100 million to 500 million.

Erica Seidel: 00:15:26

What have you seen when you're like, not going from one company to the next,

Erica Seidel: 00:15:31

but, but within a company as it scales?

Elana Anderson: 00:15:33

I think my interactions have shifted less given scale

Elana Anderson: 00:15:39

and more given what the strategic priorities are at any given time.

Elana Anderson: 00:15:43

You know, so if the strategic priority, you know, of the, of the business is

Elana Anderson: 00:15:48

about modernizing the technology, it's likely that the Chief Product Officer,

Elana Anderson: 00:15:53

you know, is gonna be spending the time on the hot seat, you know, with the

Elana Anderson: 00:15:56

Board rather than, you know, rather than the Chief Marketing Officer.

Elana Anderson: 00:15:59

Now, if the chief, uh, if, if the strategic priority on the other hand

Elana Anderson: 00:16:03

is, is about growth or fending off the competition, or you know, some other

Elana Anderson: 00:16:08

go-to-market topic, then you know, I know it's much more likely that

Elana Anderson: 00:16:11

I'm gonna be in the hot seat or, you know, I and the, uh, the Chief Revenue

Elana Anderson: 00:16:15

Officer are gonna be in the hot seat.

Elana Anderson: 00:16:17

But I think, I do think, though, that regardless of the scale,

Elana Anderson: 00:16:21

um, of the company, the CMO needs to focus on objectives, on

Elana Anderson: 00:16:26

outcomes, on critical metrics.

Elana Anderson: 00:16:28

You know, some, sometimes marketers are over enamored, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:16:34

about, what they do rather than the outcomes that they drive.

Elana Anderson: 00:16:39

You know?

Elana Anderson: 00:16:40

And I think particularly with the Board, you know, it's about the destination.

Elana Anderson: 00:16:44

It's not about the journey.

Elana Anderson: 00:16:46

The journey really only matters when there's something that significantly

Elana Anderson: 00:16:51

new, you know, significantly new lessons that you learned along the way.

Elana Anderson: 00:16:55

Whether those lessons were good lessons, lessons that you wanna repeat, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:16:59

or, or lessons that, you know, you tried something, you know, and it didn't work.

Elana Anderson: 00:17:04

I think they only care about that journey when there's something major

Elana Anderson: 00:17:07

that you learned along the way.

Erica Seidel: 00:17:10

Why is it, do you think, that people get enamored of

Erica Seidel: 00:17:13

the journey and not the destination?

Erica Seidel: 00:17:15

It's very well said, by the way.

Elana Anderson: 00:17:17

Well, you know, I, I think we, um, we do a lot in marketing.

Elana Anderson: 00:17:22

There's a lot of stuff that happens under the covers in marketing.

Elana Anderson: 00:17:25

And, um, at the end of the day, what does the Board really care about is,

Elana Anderson: 00:17:30

well, how did that impact sales, right?

Elana Anderson: 00:17:32

You know, and, and there's so much work that goes into it, you know, you wanna

Elana Anderson: 00:17:37

get, you wanna talk about all that work that you did, but, uh, you know, I

Elana Anderson: 00:17:42

think, frankly, we gotta get over that.

Erica Seidel: 00:17:44

[Small chuckle] Yeah, other people on the podcast have talked about

Erica Seidel: 00:17:49

this, uh, that, that a lot of marketers, especially maybe when they're early to

Erica Seidel: 00:17:55

being CMOs, they will want to say, oh, this is how I've been spending my time.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:00

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:18:00

As opposed to this is the output of it, and that's, that's it.

Erica Seidel: 00:18:04

That's enough.

Erica Seidel: 00:18:05

Right.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:05

Exactly.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:06

Exactly.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:07

Yeah.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:07

You know, marketing, it's a, um, there's a lot, you know, if you compare to the

Elana Anderson: 00:18:12

other, you know, other functions, there's so many intricate pieces in, in marketing,

Elana Anderson: 00:18:18

but I, I think that, you know, you're in the job as CMO, you know, because

Elana Anderson: 00:18:24

they thought you knew how to do the job.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:26

You know, so nobody needs to know all those, all, all those

Elana Anderson: 00:18:29

little details, you know?

Erica Seidel: 00:18:30

Mm-hmm.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:31

And I think if you know how to net it out and talk

Elana Anderson: 00:18:34

about, you know, again, the, the lessons learned are very interesting

Elana Anderson: 00:18:38

out of the major things that you did that did or didn't, didn't work.

Erica Seidel: 00:18:41

Mm-hmm.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:42

That, that is interesting to a Board, I found, because those

Elana Anderson: 00:18:45

are the things that they're gonna tell their other companies that, you

Elana Anderson: 00:18:48

know, they're on the Boards of, you know, that, that does get interesting.

Elana Anderson: 00:18:53

In addition to the outcomes.

Erica Seidel: 00:18:55

So you've interviewed for a bunch of different CMO roles in the

Erica Seidel: 00:18:59

course of your career, and presumably you've interviewed with Board members.

Erica Seidel: 00:19:03

And I'm wondering, like, how, what, what should a uh, somebody

Erica Seidel: 00:19:07

interviewing with a Board member for a CMO role, what should they expect?

Erica Seidel: 00:19:10

How should they prepare?

Erica Seidel: 00:19:11

Any thoughts there?

Elana Anderson: 00:19:13

I think for every exec role I've had, I've interviewed

Elana Anderson: 00:19:16

with one or more Board members.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:18

You know, honestly I prepare for them just like I prepare for any, any interview.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:22

I try to learn as much about the individual as possible.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:26

I start with their LinkedIn profile.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:28

Uh, some Board members particularly, uh, you know, older ones may

Elana Anderson: 00:19:32

not have a LinkedIn profile, but uh, you know, I researched the

Elana Anderson: 00:19:35

companies that they worked for.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:37

You know, you can usually find a lot on Google or you know, if, you know, if they

Elana Anderson: 00:19:41

be movers and things like that you can find a lot of information about people.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:45

I look for articles.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:47

So I, I try to get a, learn as much as I can about them personally and

Elana Anderson: 00:19:51

how, you know, how they operate and you know, what they know.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:55

You know, and then what I said before about outcomes is, is super important.

Elana Anderson: 00:19:59

I don't expect to talk deep marketing, you know, shop talk

Elana Anderson: 00:20:03

with a, with a Board member.

Elana Anderson: 00:20:04

You know, I've, I've, uh, again, I've yet to find many who are deeply

Elana Anderson: 00:20:09

interested, you know, in the details.

Elana Anderson: 00:20:12

So I tend to focus on talking about strategy, um, strategy, the company,

Elana Anderson: 00:20:17

um, the market, you know, the market trends, um, the competitive

Elana Anderson: 00:20:22

trends, the competitive landscape.

Elana Anderson: 00:20:24

Um, I talk about how I've moved the needle, you know, in, in other

Elana Anderson: 00:20:28

companies, how I've aligned teams.

Elana Anderson: 00:20:30

You know, and when I talk about teams, you know, it's how you've, how I've

Elana Anderson: 00:20:33

aligned, you know, the marketing team, but not just the marketing team.

Elana Anderson: 00:20:36

Because I think what's critical in an executive role is not just, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:20:40

how you manage your function, but how you work as a business executive, uh,

Elana Anderson: 00:20:46

you know, across the organization, right?

Erica Seidel: 00:20:49

And it's interesting, you're talking about going, like,

Erica Seidel: 00:20:51

talking about how you manage across.

Erica Seidel: 00:20:52

I always, I, I, I think of this, like, framework of different

Erica Seidel: 00:20:56

types of management, right?

Erica Seidel: 00:20:57

So there's managing up, down, you know, like people work for you, inward, across,

Erica Seidel: 00:21:03

like across the organization, and then out, you know, like, like partners or

Erica Seidel: 00:21:07

people like outside of the organization.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:09

And in my experience, I've found that, you know, the best people are strong at

Erica Seidel: 00:21:12

managing as many of those as possible.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:14

And usually people have strengths in some areas and less in others.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:18

And you're right, as a CMO, sometimes people make the

Erica Seidel: 00:21:21

mistake of being too siloed in-

Elana Anderson: 00:21:23

Yeah

Erica Seidel: 00:21:24

in how they describe their experience.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:26

And so I like that, that aspect of you as like the chief, kind of, diplomacy

Erica Seidel: 00:21:30

officer or something like, you know, the chief shuttle diplomat within the company.

Elana Anderson: 00:21:35

Yeah.

Elana Anderson: 00:21:35

I think really reinforcing that point of, you know, don't just, particularly

Elana Anderson: 00:21:38

with a Board member, don't just go sort of down the marketing silo.

Elana Anderson: 00:21:42

Make sure you're focusing across, you know, across and out.

Elana Anderson: 00:21:45

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:46

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:47

Now an interview is a two-way street, and you're right that the, the

Erica Seidel: 00:21:51

strongest interviews are ones where you don't get intimidated and you're

Erica Seidel: 00:21:55

having a peer-to-peer dialogue.

Erica Seidel: 00:21:57

So a CMO is also looking for a company to join and wanting to make sure that that's

Erica Seidel: 00:22:03

gonna be a place where they can flourish.

Erica Seidel: 00:22:04

So how should they interview a Board?

Erica Seidel: 00:22:07

Like what clues should they look for to know that a Board would be-

Erica Seidel: 00:22:11

a Board member or, or, you know, a Board would be a, a, you know, a

Erica Seidel: 00:22:14

good one to kind of sign up with?

Elana Anderson: 00:22:17

Yeah, and I'm a, I'm also, uh, interviewing the Board

Elana Anderson: 00:22:20

member, so to speak, to, you know, get a better sense of the company and the

Elana Anderson: 00:22:24

culture and the opportunity, how much they believe in the company as well.

Elana Anderson: 00:22:29

I always love to find out what they know about the market, the

Elana Anderson: 00:22:33

competition, what they think the unique advantage of the company is.

Elana Anderson: 00:22:38

And I think if they're able to answer those questions, that gives the incoming,

Elana Anderson: 00:22:43

you know, CMO, uh, a sense of how strong the company's story resonates, right?

Elana Anderson: 00:22:48

If, if you don't hear a crisp story around the unique advantage of the

Elana Anderson: 00:22:52

company, then you, I've got some work to do, you know, on the messaging.

Elana Anderson: 00:22:56

I also ask how I, I should expect to work with them.

Elana Anderson: 00:23:00

You know, and if they have an interesting background, I go, I start right there

Elana Anderson: 00:23:03

and ask about if they're willing to support those marketing activities.

Elana Anderson: 00:23:07

So, you know, start early on that count.

Erica Seidel: 00:23:10

That's great.

Erica Seidel: 00:23:11

Now let me drill into something you said.

Erica Seidel: 00:23:13

You wanna see how much they believe in the company.

Erica Seidel: 00:23:15

How do you get at that?

Elana Anderson: 00:23:17

Well, I think that's, that's where, you know, I'm

Elana Anderson: 00:23:19

asking about their understanding of the market and the unique

Elana Anderson: 00:23:23

advantage, you know, of the company.

Elana Anderson: 00:23:26

So why, why is this company going to win?

Elana Anderson: 00:23:29

What makes them unique?

Erica Seidel: 00:23:31

Mm-hmm.

Elana Anderson: 00:23:32

What is the outlook for the company?

Elana Anderson: 00:23:34

You know, why, why is this company gonna win over competitor X, Y, Z?

Elana Anderson: 00:23:39

If competitor X, Y, Z might be a leader, and you know, the company's not a le-

Elana Anderson: 00:23:43

not a leader, you know, it gives, gi- gives me a sense of a, how much they

Elana Anderson: 00:23:47

believe and also how strong the messaging for the company, for the business is.

Erica Seidel: 00:23:51

Hmm.

Erica Seidel: 00:23:52

And it also shows that you've done your homework on the other

Erica Seidel: 00:23:55

competitors and you're, you're kind of coming up with a bit of a, like

Erica Seidel: 00:23:59

a pre-baked perspective, right?

Erica Seidel: 00:24:00

You're asking for their perspective, but it seems like you've done enough of

Erica Seidel: 00:24:03

your homework to, to have your own, to start to have your own you on things.

Elana Anderson: 00:24:07

The company, the market, the competitive.

Elana Anderson: 00:24:09

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:24:10

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:24:10

Right, right, right.

Erica Seidel: 00:24:11

Exactly.

Erica Seidel: 00:24:12

Now, I know some people, when they prepare for a company- for, for an

Erica Seidel: 00:24:15

interview, they do like a kind of cheat sheet, you know, kind of thing.

Erica Seidel: 00:24:18

I'm remembering from business school, we all had these cheat sheets on

Erica Seidel: 00:24:21

like, you know, five examples of, uh, you know, I don't know, increasing

Erica Seidel: 00:24:25

revenue and, you know, three examples of competitive differentiation.

Erica Seidel: 00:24:29

Like, would that be useful, do you think for somebody interviewing, for,

Erica Seidel: 00:24:33

um, interviewing with a Board member?

Elana Anderson: 00:24:35

It would.

Elana Anderson: 00:24:36

Have I done it?

Elana Anderson: 00:24:37

No, it's a great, it's a good advice.

Elana Anderson: 00:24:41

Um, I, I, well, I, you know, that's, I do have my sort of little cheat sheets

Elana Anderson: 00:24:45

of things that I've, I've, uh, how I've increased value at company A, company

Elana Anderson: 00:24:50

B, company C, that sort of thing.

Elana Anderson: 00:24:52

I do think it's a great, I, uh, a good idea.

Elana Anderson: 00:24:55

I tend to be probably less structured, I suppose, in, in terms of how I

Elana Anderson: 00:25:00

approach an interview like that.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:03

You know, I do a lot of reading, but I don't, I don't come with a set of

Elana Anderson: 00:25:06

notes, but, uh, but I do, you know, particularly if you're on video, which a

Elana Anderson: 00:25:11

lot of the, uh, a lot of the interviews with Board members tend to be, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:25:17

it's a good, it's a good thing to have.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:19

Right.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:20

And it, but it's interesting cuz you can have your notes, it's good to

Erica Seidel: 00:25:22

have the notes, right, and whether you're in person or on video.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:26

But you don't wanna seem like you're reliant on your notes.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:29

No.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:30

Yeah.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:30

You need to be able to have that.

Erica Seidel: 00:25:31

And it's the same for interviewing for a CMO job when you're interviewing the CEO.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:35

Absolutely.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:35

Having a, being natural, having a se- seamless dialogue.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:38

You know, not feeling nervous, you know, not, not appearing nervous.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:42

Absolutely.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:43

You know, you wanna be natural, you want it to flow, you know, certainly the larger

Elana Anderson: 00:25:47

the company, if it's a public company, you know, if it's a public company, you're

Elana Anderson: 00:25:50

likely, you know, gonna be a face of the business, you know, in many situations.

Elana Anderson: 00:25:55

And, you know, for a CMO to be calm, cool, and collected, and,

Elana Anderson: 00:25:59

you know, uh, in, in that kind of situation is incredibly important.

Erica Seidel: 00:26:06

So you are now, um, in discussions with companies about Board

Erica Seidel: 00:26:10

roles for yourself after having all these awesome CMO roles in different

Erica Seidel: 00:26:14

companies and different experiences.

Erica Seidel: 00:26:16

So for marketers who anticipate being in your shoes one day, you know, what

Erica Seidel: 00:26:20

should they expect and, and what are you learning about, you know, joining a Board?

Elana Anderson: 00:26:26

Well, so you should expect it to be a process.

Elana Anderson: 00:26:32

It's gonna take a lot of time.

Elana Anderson: 00:26:33

It's gonna take a lot of networking and a lot of time.

Elana Anderson: 00:26:37

Unless you have an incredible stroke of luck, um, you're likely gonna start

Elana Anderson: 00:26:43

with smaller companies, uh, private companies, you know, and then you'll

Elana Anderson: 00:26:48

work your way towards larger private companies, public companies, um, someday.

Elana Anderson: 00:26:55

You know, if, if you're, uh, you should consider, if you haven't already, you

Elana Anderson: 00:27:00

should join a, consider joining an advisory Board now and add some of

Elana Anderson: 00:27:05

that or, or more than one, add some of that experience to your profile.

Elana Anderson: 00:27:10

You know, I also, you should start sooner than later.

Elana Anderson: 00:27:14

If your growth path is towards Board work, then you should engage your

Elana Anderson: 00:27:21

boss and your current Board to help you secure your first Board role now.

Elana Anderson: 00:27:27

And in some companies, you know, that might be controversial.

Elana Anderson: 00:27:31

Um, I was in a session a couple weeks ago, um, with Chris

Elana Anderson: 00:27:35

Comparato, who's the CEO of Toast.

Elana Anderson: 00:27:38

And you know, he was saying that, you know, several years ago, he, he didn't

Elana Anderson: 00:27:42

want his execs to be on Boards, and now he's completely changed his mind,

Elana Anderson: 00:27:48

um, because it's such great experience.

Elana Anderson: 00:27:51

And, you know, I think back to companies that, you know, I've been at and, you

Elana Anderson: 00:27:55

know, you do this annual survey every, every year and the individuals in the

Elana Anderson: 00:28:01

company that tend to be least satisfied with their growth, um, their growth and

Elana Anderson: 00:28:08

development are senior execs, because, you know, and I know I felt this way to some

Elana Anderson: 00:28:13

extent too, like what's my growth plan?

Elana Anderson: 00:28:15

I don't have one, you know?

Elana Anderson: 00:28:17

I'm not gonna get promoted, you know, you know, I can take on more things in

Elana Anderson: 00:28:21

special projects and always did that.

Elana Anderson: 00:28:23

But you know, so I think for a lot of people in the executive suite, that

Elana Anderson: 00:28:29

Board work is a great growth plan.

Elana Anderson: 00:28:33

And so sitting down and working with your boss and talking about, well,

Elana Anderson: 00:28:37

how do you, you know, how can you work together to secure that first Board role.

Elana Anderson: 00:28:44

I wish I had been more aggressive about doing that myself.

Elana Anderson: 00:28:48

I wish I had carved out more time to do that.

Elana Anderson: 00:28:51

I didn't feel like I had the time, you know?

Elana Anderson: 00:28:54

I regret that, regret that now, so I can't recommend that highly enough.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:01

And there are also some great preparatory, um, programs out there, you know, to help,

Elana Anderson: 00:29:06

particularly for DEI candidates, you know.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:09

Um, if you're in Massachusetts, in the Boston area, Mass TLC has this great

Elana Anderson: 00:29:14

program called the Board Ready Bootcamp.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:16

I've sent folks who worked for me to it in the past, worked for me to it in the past.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:22

Um, they run it twice a year.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:25

Deloitte has a regional program that they run once a year.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:29

You know, there's tons of lists and that sort of thing.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:31

There's the Athena Alliance.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:33

There's like, there's so many programs that, um, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:29:37

that are out there that, you know, to help you sort of prepare

Elana Anderson: 00:29:40

yourself, um, for, for that future.

Erica Seidel: 00:29:44

That's great.

Erica Seidel: 00:29:44

And is branding yourself for Board any different than

Erica Seidel: 00:29:47

branding yourself for a CMO role?

Elana Anderson: 00:29:51

Well, you know, I think I, you know, I'm a firm believer in your

Elana Anderson: 00:29:55

brand as your, you know, your, your brand.

Elana Anderson: 00:29:58

Be authentic, be, you know, be yourself, be, you know, all those things.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:00

But I do think it's very important when you're positioning yourself, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:30:05

I'll use that term instead of brand, when you're positioning yourself for Board

Elana Anderson: 00:30:10

work, you know, you're shifting from, you know, as the CMO, you owned it, right?

Elana Anderson: 00:30:14

You delivered it, you execute it.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:17

You know, the big shift here to, to Board is, you know,

Elana Anderson: 00:30:21

you're now in an advisory seat.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:23

You know, you're now leveraging all that experience you have to advise.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:28

You don't own it.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:30

You can't tell companies what to do.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:33

You can give examples.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:34

You can make suggestions.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:35

You can make connections.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:37

Uh, you're advising.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:39

I'm fortunate, you know, we worked at Forrester together as, as an analyst.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:43

You know, I did a lot of advisory work, you know, for lots of companies,

Elana Anderson: 00:30:48

you know, so I, I have a lot of that background, you know, in my history.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:53

Um, so I'm fortunate, you know, it's very relevant to, to Board work.

Elana Anderson: 00:30:57

I also think that it's important to, um, to target companies.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:02

You don't wanna just try to be a Board member anywhere.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:05

Um, you wanna try to target companies that are really relevant, you

Elana Anderson: 00:31:10

know, for you, for your background.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:12

So you know, for example, you know, if you have deep expertise in product-led

Elana Anderson: 00:31:17

growth, then go and find a company that is maybe focused on an enterprise

Elana Anderson: 00:31:24

sales motion, but they're trying to shift to product-led growth because

Elana Anderson: 00:31:28

they really need your expertise, right?

Elana Anderson: 00:31:31

They're not a product-led growth company today.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:32

They're trying to make this shift.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:34

So that expertise, you know, would be tremendously helpful to them.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:38

That sort of thing may, you know, maybe it's a, you know, maybe it's an industry

Elana Anderson: 00:31:42

expertise, you know, that sort of thing.

Elana Anderson: 00:31:44

Maybe you're a known personality in their industry, you know, so you have

Elana Anderson: 00:31:49

to figure out what your, you know, what your hook is, so to speak, if,

Elana Anderson: 00:31:53

uh, you know, if you're, you know, gonna try to be an independent Board

Elana Anderson: 00:31:57

member at a particular company.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:00

Thank you so much for joining the show, Elana, this has

Erica Seidel: 00:32:02

been fabulous speaking with you.

Elana Anderson: 00:32:04

Likewise.

Elana Anderson: 00:32:04

Yeah, really fun.

Elana Anderson: 00:32:05

Thanks for, thanks for inviting me.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:08

Now that you have heard from Elana, think about how you can

Erica Seidel: 00:32:10

put your Board members to work as adjunct members of the marketing team.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:15

Next time on The Get you'll hear from Sandra Lopez.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:18

You'll hear about how to put your best foot forward when you interview with a

Erica Seidel: 00:32:21

Board, about managing expectations with the Board on how long things take in

Erica Seidel: 00:32:25

marketing, and about nonprofit Boards as a segue to for-profit Board work.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:31

Don't miss it.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:34

Thanks for listening to The Get.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:36

I'm your host, Erica Seidel.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:38

The Get is here to drive smart decisions around recruiting and

Erica Seidel: 00:32:41

leadership in B2B SaaS marketing.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:44

We explore the trends, tribulations, and triumphs of today's top

Erica Seidel: 00:32:47

marketing leaders in B2B SaaS.

Erica Seidel: 00:32:49

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Erica Seidel: 00:32:52

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Erica Seidel: 00:32:55

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Erica Seidel: 00:32:59

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Erica Seidel: 00:33:08

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